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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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19
evieowlette · 07/07/2023 19:36

Hepwo · 07/07/2023 19:26

Most of the women I see in my life are incredibly strong and a lot present themselves traditionally more masculine.

More stereotypes. You love them don't you?

I weight lift. Is that traditionally masculinity I'm presenting as? I thought I was just weightlifting for strength.

I'm going shooting tomorrow, it's mostly men that go and I will be wearing similar stuff to the men ie jeans.

Is that me presenting as traditionally more masculine or am I just wearing jeans and going shooting?

You seem to think in stereotypes about people.

Christ it's not a stereotype if i'm talking about actual people I know.
Maybe the women in your circle are traditionally more effeminate. Who knows. I'm just talking about my own experiences.

To all the points you make here good for you but my point is so what? By simply saying you are a women to others no matter how you dress or behave or look or talk or what hobbies you have there will always be people who make judgements about you regardless. This can be a double edged sword of course because identifying as Trans can bring certain negative stereotypes anyway but if people didn't want to identify this way they wouldn't bother so it's clearly comforting to a minority of people.

Meceme · 07/07/2023 19:36

Sometimes I despair for my daughters generation...I grew up in the 80s where we really ignored gender stereotypes and just valued each other as people. Good or bad, regardless of what we wore, did or liked. We had a freedom to experiment and explore our lives that is sadly lacking now.

Hepwo · 07/07/2023 19:36

evieowlette · 07/07/2023 19:26

No she has just described herself as that before so I use the term. It's easy to use the terms people ask you to use for how they describe themselves and it doesn't require additional mental gymnastics. It's great.

But you repeated and I asked you if you think a woman that doesn't take any shit has to have a type of "boy" character description?

You used it quite specifically as an example?

What is a non gendered label for a woman who doesn't take any shit?

Can you think of one that doesn't ascribe a masculine stereotype to a woman? So you believe that women can have characteristics across the spectrum of human traits without being described as having opposite sex traits?

I'm just trying to ascertain how embedded you are in stereotype thinking as you seem to have adopted the trans stereotype model of thinking very easily without really understanding you are doing it.

WickedSerious · 07/07/2023 19:36

evieowlette · 07/07/2023 18:40

I'm not forcing anyone to use the term. You don't have to use the term if you don't want i'm just making an explanation of why calling Trans Women "Men" erases there unique experiences entirely which is pretty offensive. If you don't want to call a Trans Woman a Woman don't. Call them a Trans Women. Seriously what is the issue here?

The issue for me is that they're not any sort of woman.

evieowlette · 07/07/2023 19:38

Hepwo · 07/07/2023 19:36

But you repeated and I asked you if you think a woman that doesn't take any shit has to have a type of "boy" character description?

You used it quite specifically as an example?

What is a non gendered label for a woman who doesn't take any shit?

Can you think of one that doesn't ascribe a masculine stereotype to a woman? So you believe that women can have characteristics across the spectrum of human traits without being described as having opposite sex traits?

I'm just trying to ascertain how embedded you are in stereotype thinking as you seem to have adopted the trans stereotype model of thinking very easily without really understanding you are doing it.

No I just described my mum in particular. I don't know how on earth you managed to extrapolate that from what I said i'm talking about one person in particular. People can present effeminate but still be incredibly strong

DeanElderberry · 07/07/2023 19:38

JudgeAnderson · 07/07/2023 19:30

You do not have to conform to expectations, you can be a proud and confident woman however you present.

This. We're very lucky to not live in Afghanistan, no-one is going to stone you to death for not conforming to stereotypes.

Quite. Conformity to gender stereotypes had pretty much ceased to be a thing anyone cared about until the genderists revived it and started trying to define them rigidly so that people could transition out of or in to them.

ChocAuVin · 07/07/2023 19:39

JudgeAnderson · 07/07/2023 19:28

I don't think you get the purpose of They/Them for most people.

Don't confuse thinking it's made-up bollox with not getting it.

Grin
Hepwo · 07/07/2023 19:40

Maybe the women in your circle are traditionally more effeminate.

Effeminate is a stereotype word that used to be used a lot about gay men. It's a bit old fashioned now.

Hepwo · 07/07/2023 19:41

evieowlette · 07/07/2023 19:38

No I just described my mum in particular. I don't know how on earth you managed to extrapolate that from what I said i'm talking about one person in particular. People can present effeminate but still be incredibly strong

No shit Sherlock.

What is a non gendered label for a woman who doesn't take any shit?

MavisMcMinty · 07/07/2023 19:45

Hepwo · 07/07/2023 19:41

No shit Sherlock.

What is a non gendered label for a woman who doesn't take any shit?

I suspect Evie will ignore this question, so may I suggest “a woman who takes no shit”?

evieowlette · 07/07/2023 19:46

Meceme · 07/07/2023 19:36

Sometimes I despair for my daughters generation...I grew up in the 80s where we really ignored gender stereotypes and just valued each other as people. Good or bad, regardless of what we wore, did or liked. We had a freedom to experiment and explore our lives that is sadly lacking now.

What I mean is people can ignore gender stereotypes but you cannot convince every person you know that those stereotypes are false. For some people that's fine but for others it isn't and they will do everything they can to escape it.

I think what you mean is you can't understand Transgender people or Non-binary people because you think identifying this way is a cop-out which makes sense. To that though there are still only 0.24% of people in the UK from the recent census that even identified themselves with a gender identity different to that of there original sex yet they seem to get a disproportional amount of harassment for it.

Boomboom22 · 07/07/2023 19:48

It's also very offensive fir you to state tw are as at risk Ogmore are risk of sexual assault. Unless you mean more likely to do it than even men according to the stats, how tf are tw with their make strength and penises vulnerable to secual assault? You are actually a crazy person.

Meceme · 07/07/2023 19:48

MavisMcMinty · 07/07/2023 19:45

I suspect Evie will ignore this question, so may I suggest “a woman who takes no shit”?

To be fair, most women i know take no shit.
It might be because we are mostly post menopausal. My capacity for shit taking has developed in inverse proportion to my years of experience.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 07/07/2023 19:50

@evieowlette Could you please explain your working definition of ‘woman’?

Florissante · 07/07/2023 19:51

MavisMcMinty · 07/07/2023 19:17

I'm enjoying the capitalisation of all the Important Identity Words.

Heh, that’s what’s making my slapping hand itch. Evie does that deliberately, just as Evie does everything that Evie knows winds us up.

Glad to know that I'm not the only one to think evie's posts are not made in good faith.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 07/07/2023 19:52

probably because for such a teeny tiny minority that have enormous power. Policy, languages & laws are being rewritten to accommodate them

meanwhile women who are over half the population have their very real concerns ignored & dismissed. We can’t even define ourselves without it including fucking men. The Bank of England doesn’t light itself up in suffragette colours does it but it’s happy to do the pink & blue

NotHavingIt · 07/07/2023 19:53

evieowlette · 07/07/2023 19:36

Christ it's not a stereotype if i'm talking about actual people I know.
Maybe the women in your circle are traditionally more effeminate. Who knows. I'm just talking about my own experiences.

To all the points you make here good for you but my point is so what? By simply saying you are a women to others no matter how you dress or behave or look or talk or what hobbies you have there will always be people who make judgements about you regardless. This can be a double edged sword of course because identifying as Trans can bring certain negative stereotypes anyway but if people didn't want to identify this way they wouldn't bother so it's clearly comforting to a minority of people.

Cold Comfort more like it. Once the euphoria and 'trans joy' has faded, reality re-asserts itself. Speak to the growing number of detransitioners.

Ourladycheesusedatum · 07/07/2023 19:54

evieowlette · 07/07/2023 17:56

I'm just going to grab the definition from the dictionary at this point. Denoting or relating to a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex registered for them at birth

So those that dont have a gender identity?

Out of sheer curiosity what is your gender identity and can you describe it?

Hepwo · 07/07/2023 19:56

I think what you mean is you can't understand Transgender people or Non-binary people because you think identifying this way is a cop-out which makes sense. To that though there are still only 0.24% of people in the UK from the recent census that even identified themselves with a gender identity different to that of there original sex yet they seem to get a disproportional amount of harassment for it.

I think we understand better than you do.

https://mirandayardley.com/en/genspect-2023-transgender-as-political-backlash/

Miranda is a transexual. Read what he has to say.

An underlying message behind the post-1950s sexual revolution is that the socially imposed limits on women becoming scientists, doctors and engineers was swept aside. That is not to say that there were not women who excelled in these professions before then, for example Rosalind Franklin, Elizabeth Blackwell and Hedy Lamarr.

The difference is that now these worlds are open to all women, no matter her background, and she can be her true, authentic self: what a woman (or a man) does is not defined by what she (or he) is: what we can do is no longer defined by whether we are woman, or man.

I think this is precisely where the transgender identity lobby has gone wrong: if we can say that being a man or a woman no longer defines the social things we are able to do, instead of reaching the natural conclusion that our sex should not limit our personalities, the argument being made is that our personalities must dictate our sex.

And so, our entire personalities are distilled into ‘woman’ or ‘man’.

Genspect 2023: Transgender as Political Backlash - Miranda Yardley

We must identify who is undertaking invasive hormonal and surgical processes on young people when there is no evidence base to justify these actions.

https://mirandayardley.com/en/genspect-2023-transgender-as-political-backlash

evieowlette · 07/07/2023 19:57

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NotHavingIt · 07/07/2023 19:58

evieowlette · 07/07/2023 19:46

What I mean is people can ignore gender stereotypes but you cannot convince every person you know that those stereotypes are false. For some people that's fine but for others it isn't and they will do everything they can to escape it.

I think what you mean is you can't understand Transgender people or Non-binary people because you think identifying this way is a cop-out which makes sense. To that though there are still only 0.24% of people in the UK from the recent census that even identified themselves with a gender identity different to that of there original sex yet they seem to get a disproportional amount of harassment for it.

There is no such thing as "original sex". One cannot change sex; ever.

You are suggesting that people are beholden to stereotypes and are incapable of rejecting them in order to just be themselves?

Yet "just being yourself" is supposed to be what transsgenderism is all about. Why do you have to play act something you are not, in order to just be who you are?

NotHavingIt · 07/07/2023 19:59

Most trans people are identifying into other stereotypes...No wonder mental health issues are not resolved in the long term by transitioning.

Meceme · 07/07/2023 20:01

evieowlette · 07/07/2023 19:46

What I mean is people can ignore gender stereotypes but you cannot convince every person you know that those stereotypes are false. For some people that's fine but for others it isn't and they will do everything they can to escape it.

I think what you mean is you can't understand Transgender people or Non-binary people because you think identifying this way is a cop-out which makes sense. To that though there are still only 0.24% of people in the UK from the recent census that even identified themselves with a gender identity different to that of there original sex yet they seem to get a disproportional amount of harassment for it.

I meant exactly what i said.

I know i cant make everyone see me the way i do .... why would i want to?
I live my life according to my beliefs. If you dont agree, so what?

I dont care how you identify yourself... you do you. Be happy.

Just dont expect everyone to conform to your reality ... i dont expect you to conform to mine.

When you start compelling my speech, thoughts or ideas, or affecting my peaceful enjoyment of life then i have a problem. Live and let live, as long as all our actions fo not impinge on the freedoms of others.

(the you is general you not specifically you as an individual, this is not a rant against you as a person more the ideology you seem to espouse)

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 07/07/2023 20:01

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Of course transwomen can be raped but so can men. Please can you provide reputable sources for the claim that transwomen are more at risk of sexual assault than women

NotHavingIt · 07/07/2023 20:03

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Males have always been raped by other males, and abused young boys. There is nothing new about this.

The figures that are regularly touted to show high levels of violence against trans people tend to be those that relate to Central and South America where many transwomen work in prostitution; a notoriously dangerous occupation; and where homophobia is rife.

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