Horrible news story

[MumblesParty]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-66107716

And I can't help wondering if the "women" assailants are actually women.
Poor kid.

Also since when did Cisgender women have to change clothes or appear feminine? To me this is going against the entire purpose of why I got into feminism in the first place. To escape these shitty stereotypes.

You also told us your non binary friend wears non binary clothing.

Don't you think they have maybe adopted a stereotype?

Isn't asking people to refer to you as they just creating a new gendered stereotype?

It depends where the dysphoria stems from. For e.g. a lot of non binary people are happy with there primary and secondary sex characteristics but dislike other characteristics about themselves such as excessive body. They may also be fine with how they present themselves but want a change of pronouns to better represent how they express themselves.

I don't think the concept of They/Them or the removal of pronouns is that difficult to comprehend to be honest considering the alternative is to ask everyone on the planet to conform to whatever stereotype Men and Women are currently placed in for whatever region they live in. Like the Kinsey scale the refusal that there isn't any place in between is just ridiculous. It's also why the concept of Gender Identity is important. It can affect a persons perception of you and for some people that is enormously freeing.

I hear this myth that Trans Women always choose this path because they want to become more feminine as well or conform to the idea of femininty. Most of the women I see in my life are incredibly strong and a lot present themselves traditionally more masculine. My Grandma was an incredibly strong women who worked as a primary school teacher for a good 40+ years, my mum doesn't take any shit and is kind of the definition of a tomboy, my dad on the other hand is quite naturally effeminate.
More and more you see Trans Women Tomboys, Trans Men who consider themselves more effeminate.

The issue I have is everyone using the term "Men" when describing Trans Women. It doesn't make any sense. There are the terms AFAB and AMAB which are commonly shared in Trans communities and although a bit weird as acronyms they describe what you're on about and make it obvious you are talking about sex instead of a persons gender.

In a community where people believe in gender, maybe. (Although it drives me nuts just on logical grounds because what about someone who had their sex wrongly "assigned"? "AFAB" and female are NOT synonyms, unless you accept that the "assignment" is perfect, which trans advocates definitely do not. Or unless admit you don't literally mean it about the assignment and admitting you're talking about actual sex, which trans advocates definitely do not).

But here we're NEVER talking about a person's "gender". That's a given. Just as we're not talking about their "auras" or anything else non-material.

You might need disambiguation, but we don't. All sex-related words are used, consistently, to refer to sex. (Even in compounds like "transwoman" which are a bit confusing, but no more so than "seahorse", etc. The compound means it's a word referring to the thing - woman/horse - while not being the thing)

Because we only care about sex - if we care about it. It makes no sense to call a "transwoman" a "woman" (or a "seahorse" a "horse") as there is no way they fit the category, when we're talking about the population. It's just an imitation, but "X" and "things that imitate X" is never a useful category for any purpose. (Maybe on a film set? I can imagine someone might be happy with fake or real apples from a prop department? But not always, if they had to be actually eaten...)

Women and transwomen have nothing in common for any policy purpose where we would want to distinguish sex or "gender". There are very very few places where we distinguish, and in those that remain they are specifically for sex-based reasons. It's not arbitrary - it's about males and females, and male and female behaviour and abilities.

A very dim first year undergraduate.

I don't think the concept of They/Them or the removal of pronouns is that difficult to comprehend to be honest considering the alternative is to ask everyone on the planet to conform to whatever stereotype Men and Women are currently placed in for whatever region they live in.

Wrong. The alternative is feminism. Ie the fightback against rigid gender expectations, to the benefit of everyone. Not just attempting fruitlessly to opt out.
I appreciate that you may be young but you come across as seriously lacking in any understanding of the world before about 2013.

There are very very few places where we distinguish, and in those that remain they are specifically for sex-based reasons

I mean, if you're only using "woman" or "man" to say who goes into the drawing room and who goes into the parlor after dinner, or to select teams for charades, then letting someone of the "wrong" sex in is less of a big deal.

But we're talking sports, prisons, rape crisis centres...

Adult females (people with XX chromosomes, large gametes) are called women.

Adult males (people with XY chromosomes, small motile gametes) are called men.

Gender is a system of sexist behavioral stereotypes, often very oppressive, which some people (particularly in the pharmaceutical and advertising industries, and in academia) are very keen on.

People who don't like sexist oppression are not prepared to be described in genderist language.

I don't think the concept of They/Them or the removal of pronouns is that difficult to comprehend to be honest considering the alternative is to ask everyone on the planet to conform to whatever stereotype Men and Women are currently placed in for whatever region they live in

Is that what you believe?

That the only alternative to they them is conforming to stereotypes?

You are talking to people that ignored those stereotypes for the last 50 or 60 years to gain equal opportunity and representation in work and sports and the arts.

None of us needed to claim we were not female to do this, we demonstrated by our actions that women were not those stereotypes.

You act like none of that happened and outwith non binary we are all performing stereotypes as if we don't believe there is an alternative.

It's you that has just written there is no alternative.

We literally are the alternative.

I'm enjoying the capitalisation of all the Important Identity Words.

Heh, that’s what’s making my slapping hand itch. Evie does that deliberately, just as Evie does everything that Evie knows winds us up.

my mum doesn't take any shit and is kind of the definition of a tomboy,

Don't you think that's quite old fashioned of you to describe your mum with that stereotype?

Tomboy? So a woman that doesn't take any shit has to have a type of "boy" character description?

She's probably got apple indoctrinated predictive text.

How do I know if I am wearing non binary clothes?

I don't think you get the purpose of They/Them for most people. The term in itself can be used to get rid of these expectations without having to convince everybody in the world to completely change how they perceive Men and Women. Considering just about every area of our life is influenced by the stereotypes around men and women this seems like a pretty good idea to the alternative at the moment.

As a solution in the long term? I don't know. I'm still yet to live in a world where expectations are not placed on others based upon gender. I want to campaign to stop this with every ounce of my being but denying peoples right to escape the shithole that are Gender Stereotypes doesn't seem like a good solution

I live in jeans or denim shorts, t shirts and jumpers, my clothes are definitely non binary or would be if clothes had a gender

There is no such thing as non-binary clothes. Non binary people don't have to even dress androgynous if they don't want it's a way of explaining to people you don't want to play with whatever stereotype of a man and woman they have in there head and it can be helpful for some people. Not all but some.

You are not going to get rid of gender stereotypes by saying twaw and team. That is just reinforcing stereotypes

Most of the women I see in my life are incredibly strong and a lot present themselves traditionally more masculine.

More stereotypes. You love them don't you?

I weight lift. Is that traditionally masculinity I'm presenting as? I thought I was just weightlifting for strength.

I'm going shooting tomorrow, it's mostly men that go and I will be wearing similar stuff to the men ie jeans.

Is that me presenting as traditionally more masculine or am I just wearing jeans and going shooting?

You seem to think in stereotypes about people.

That's been my uniform when not working for the last 50 years!

No she has just described herself as that before so I use the term. It's easy to use the terms people ask you to use for how they describe themselves and it doesn't require additional mental gymnastics. It's great.

Expectations are not placed on people because of gender, they are placed because of sex.
You do not have to conform to expectations, you can be a proud and confident woman however you present.

I don't think you get the purpose of They/Them for most people.

Don't confuse thinking it's made-up bollox with not getting it.

I'm lucky that it's my standard workwear too. Comes of working a traditional male job

Silicone packages placed under the skin aren't mammary glands. Nor are flabby moobs puffed up with too much beer or Dr Webberleys monthly hormone subscription.

You do not have to conform to expectations, you can be a proud and confident woman however you present.

This. We're very lucky to not live in Afghanistan, no-one is going to stone you to death for not conforming to stereotypes.

Ha ha!