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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

PCOS and devastated to be called intersex

232 replies

kbana · 28/06/2023 19:11

I’m typing this through tears but just need to write it down to try and get it out of my head. Sorry if it seems long or disjointed but I’m in a bit of a state.

I hold GC views but keep these to myself as I feel afraid to speak out in case I’m called a bigot/TERF. I don’t believe that a man can become a woman but I would use people’s chosen pronouns to be polite.

I feel strongly that male-bodied people should not be able to access female spaces (including changing rooms and toilets). One of my very good friends from my university days is extremely supportive of trans rights and was ranting to me this afternoon about women’s toilets being for all women and not just females. I would normally ignore these comments to avoid arguments as she can get very heated. This time though I decided to explain (calmly and reasonably) why I didn’t agree.

My friend said that she found it astonishing that I would take that position “when many people would consider me intersex” and pointed out that I never question my own right to use the women’s loos. I asked her what she meant and she said that because I have PCOS, most TRAs and some doctors would not call me female and would include me in the intersex category. She said that I should have more sympathy for people with gender dysphoria because like them, I try to change my body to fit with my belief that I am female by taking medication to give me periods and reduce hair growth.

I tried to argue that there are thousands of women with PCOS and that they all have XX chromosomes and are female. I also pointed out that the medication is to bring back my periods, which I would have biologically if it wasn’t for my hormonal imbalance. She just kept arguing despite seeing that I was getting tearful and said that if the thousands of women with PCOS were correctly considered intersex, it would break the idea that intersex is an extremely rare group. She said that society avoids categorising PCOS as intersex to maintain the idea of two fixed sexes and encourages people with PCOS to medicate so that they fit better into the “female binary”.

I was so upset to have my sex questioned and told her so, but she just replied that is how trans people feel. Although she may have wanted to hurt me because of my GC view, she genuinely seemed to think that having PCOS means I am intersex and that my treatment for PCOS is basically to reduce my gender dysphoria so that I feel more female.

I’m not really sure what I’m asking for here but I hoped that MNers on this topic who are better informed than me can help me articulate why her view of PCOS as intersex is wrong and reassure me that I correct in believing that I am fully female (I can’t believe I even had to write that last bit). I am pretty sure that our friendship is over so I doubt I’ll have this argument with her again but it would still help me to know exactly why her thinking is wrong.

I am devastated to have lost her friendship and to have been made to feel less than female because of my health condition. I also don’t understand why she is so supportive of trans people choosing their gender and yet wants to tell me which category I’m really in. It is offensive and upsetting.

If you got to the end of this, thank you for reading. I hope I don’t sound like I’ve made this is up -frankly, I find it hard to believe too. The most upsetting part is that even though I am almost convinced she is wrong, it has still planted a seed of doubt because it plays on my insecurities about being hairier etc than most other women.

Thank you for any advice.

OP posts:
Faffertea · 28/06/2023 21:15

Your ‘friend’ is not a friend. And she’s talking out her arse.

Only women have PCOS. And it is probably part of a wider metabolic syndrome (similarities with Type 2 Diabetes due to insulin resistance).

I’ve never once considered a diagnosis of PCOS in any of my male patients.

(I’m a GP)

Faffertea · 28/06/2023 21:18

She’s also being offensive to people with DSDs who do not like the term intersex. And all of those people are male or female with a medical condition.

SmartHome · 28/06/2023 21:18

Anyone that thinks that having cysts on your ovaries, which you've had since a couple of weeks after your parents conceived you, makes you any different to me or any other female is, frankly, very, very stupid.

I think you need to write this person off as too dumb to be firends with, and try not to even give them head space.

Where has this stupid (in a crowded field) idea that PCOS is a DSD (formerly knows as intersex) condition come from? It's just nonsensical. You don't even develop PCOS until after puberty. Just .... DUMB.

crumpet · 28/06/2023 21:19
  1. she is not a good friend
  2. she is an arse
  3. she actually doesn’t know what she is talking about
  4. only females can get pcos
  5. she is an arse
  6. she is an arse
daytriptovulcan · 28/06/2023 21:19

If that fanatic becomes an ex friend I guess life just got a little easier...she sounds hurtful and vile.

JanesBlond · 28/06/2023 21:20

PCOS diagnosis requires other conditions with similar symptoms to be ruled out. Does your friend think hyperthyroidism, Cushing’s syndrome or ovarian cancer make someone intersex? Or being from an ethnic background that predisposes them to more body hair? Or anorexia? Presumably not because that would be (even more) insane.

highame · 28/06/2023 21:20

I hope you feel cheered by all these comments Op. Take care and remember, your friend didn't take the time to educate herself about your condition and instead of understanding, she chose to jump into a debate she is ill equipped to be a part of.

Whowhatwherewhenwhy1 · 28/06/2023 21:28

senua · 28/06/2023 19:15

Your friend is batshit.
PCOS stands for Polycystic ovary syndrome (not that you need me to tell you that). OVARIES. Only the FEMALE has ovaries. You are female. You are not intersex.

This. This ex friend is a total twat who has been brainwashed. She is no loss.

FannyCann · 28/06/2023 21:29

Faffertea · 28/06/2023 21:18

She’s also being offensive to people with DSDs who do not like the term intersex. And all of those people are male or female with a medical condition.

And they don't like being co-opted under the trans umbrella or used as a gotcha "there is a third sex" trump card.

What a load of bollocks.

I'd drop the "friend" but I might be tempted to send her the link to this thread.

Dry your tears. I hope you feel much better after reading the replies. I hope you are getting the best treatment for your condition.

Tiddlypomtiddlypom · 28/06/2023 21:31

Your friend is unbelievably stupid and ignorant, but worse, she’s cruel.

UncomfortableSofa · 28/06/2023 21:40

I have PCOS. I am unquestionably female. So are you.

Never speak to that 'friend' again.

JanesLittleGirl · 28/06/2023 21:45

Flowers and Cake for you. Fuck your 'friend'.

BellaAmorosa · 28/06/2023 22:15

Haven't RTFT yet but I wanted to say that of course you are a woman - you are a female human being with a medical condition that can only affect females. Your friend isn't just rude and heartless, she's WRONG. Also wrong about intersex - which is a very old-fashioned and othering term, coined when people knew less about differences/variations in sexual development and mistook pseudohermaphroditism for the real thing (which does not exist in humans). Everyone with a DSD is either male or female - the DSDs are all sex-specific.
PCOS is not even a DSD - that term is reserved for conditions which affect the foetus/embryo in utero. So she's talking nonsense there as well.

Please ignore me if I'm out of line here, but have you looked into intermittent fasting and a change of diet as a therapy for your PCOS? I have no medical training so obviously this is not medical advice, but I have read that it can reverse or reduce the hormonal imbalance.

Anyway, please have a hug from me!

kbana · 28/06/2023 22:43

Just wanted to say a huge thank you for the kind comments and excellent points. The conversation certainly does feel like gaslighting now I look back on it and there was certainly no #bekind. I’m feeling better after reading your comments (and eating a large bar of chocolate…)

I agree with you all that it looks like the friendship is over. We have been good friends since university almost 20 years ago and she has always been more left-wing than me. She has always stood up for marginalised groups (and considered herself a feminist) so it is ironic that she is now taking such an extreme position on trans issues without seeing that this is at the expense of women / people with DSDs. I’m sure she’d never use the “intersex” label if it wasn’t for her need to argue that sex is a spectrum. I really hope she comes to her senses one day because at the moment, she is a totally different person and not one I’d ever have befriended in the first place.

I totally agree with the person who pointed out that she spends too much time on the internet. Until today, I’d literally never heard of this pseudoscience and am baffled to learn that some people with PCOS are claiming to be intersex on TikTok / Twitter. It scares me that other people would accept this (and even champion it) rather than challenging the idea and pointing out the harm it does to women with PCOS.

Thanks again to all the wonderful women who posted on this thread 💕💕

OP posts:
DSDaisy · 28/06/2023 23:03

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

aloris · 28/06/2023 23:03

This woman's argument is based on an incorrect way of defining male and female. It is in the interests of transgender advocates to act as if sex is a continuum rather than a binary. In fact, sex is binary because we reproduce as either male or female. Male is defined as the sex with the small gametes which in humans are sperm. Female is defined as the sex with the large gametes which in human are ova. Very simply, an individual adapted to producing sperm is male. One adapted to producing ova is female.

Through evolution, complex pathways have evolved to support and complement the reproductive functions of the sperm and ova, leading to secondary features of sex differentiation such as breasts, the penis, vulva, hairiness of the body, Adam's apple, different face shapes, etcetera. In addition, humans also adopt behaviors for social bonding as a particular sex. The mis-definition of male and female, that is preferred by transgender advocates, depends on conflating all these traits into two boxes of stereotypes, essentially collapsing them all onto a linear scale with male at one end and female at the other.

Under their (incorrect) definition of sex, PCOS might be shifted away from the female side of the scale and towards the male side of the scale, because of its effect on these secondary traits. But this is nothing to do with the actual femaleness of the person, it's completely a result of their using a definition that is incorrect (and incoherent, but that's another story). As you pointed out, to have PCOS, you must have ovaries! It's similar for some of their other stupid ideas, such as the argument that a woman in menopause or one who has had a hysterectomy is somehow less female. Their reasoning is wrong because to be in menopause, you must be female. Males do not go through menopause. To have a hysterectomy, you must have a uterus. A male cannot have a hysterectomy because no uterus. Etcetera.

It is pointless to argue with ideologues because their commitment to their ideology takes priority over the truth. They will always distort things to get to the result they want.

DSDaisy · 28/06/2023 23:13

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

Datun · 28/06/2023 23:43

People's brains are falling out their arses.

I don't know why, but that really made me laugh 😁

Datun · 28/06/2023 23:44

And yes to who ever said transactivists like the term intersex, despite it being so offensive to many people with DSDs. They like it to suggest that there is a third sex or another sex between the two sexes.

Wankers.

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 28/06/2023 23:48

I've got PCOS and like fuck am I "intersex". If I was I couldn't have given birth could I? (If I understand correctly DSDs/intersex lead to infertility?)
Although... I possibly could make some money first selling my story to the media "Intersex afab gives birth"
Until they realise I'm actually just your basic female with PCOS anyway.

NB: I know afab isn't a thing. But it's how the papers would word it!

ThereIbledit · 28/06/2023 23:58

I'm sorry OP. That was an incredibly hurtful and out of order thing for your "friend" to have done. People who have DSDs would have also have been offended by her fucking twattery too, so she's hit two groups with her TRA bullshit for the price of one.

Alcemeg · 29/06/2023 00:24

You haven't lost a friend.

A lunatic has detached themselves from you.

Congratulations!!!

I'm sorry they made you feel like shit. I wish I could buy you a drink and give you a hug 🤗 🌺

CarpetDiem · 29/06/2023 07:06

Some mate she is.
She deliberately said this to hurt you.
Fuck her.
Ovaries = WOMAN

Nellodee · 29/06/2023 07:17

If PCOS was an intersex condition, shouldn’t I have been entitled to hair removal on the nhs? The fact I wasn’t shows that I’m obviously (only) a woman.

Danascully2 · 29/06/2023 08:06

OP, this is a ridiculous argument as so many others have explained, as well as being very rude to you to discuss it at all without huge sensitivity to your feelings about it all. It reminds me of a discussion I had yesterday with a baptist who stopped me on the street and told me that if I wanted to follow Jesus then I also had to believe the earth was 5000 years old and couldn't 'believe in' evolution. As a lifelong churchgoer/Christian and also biologist I was not impressed (though I hope I was polite and respectful of his clearly deeply held beliefs). But this post reminds me of it because of the convoluted reasoning he was using to justify his argument against evolution. I really struggled to follow his line of thinking. At times I think he was quoting a list of arguments he'd learnt from somewhere. Anyway, when I read about the OPs conversation with her 'friend' some of the parallels with my conversation struck me.

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