PCOS and devastated to be called intersex

[kbana]

I’m typing this through tears but just need to write it down to try and get it out of my head. Sorry if it seems long or disjointed but I’m in a bit of a state.

I hold GC views but keep these to myself as I feel afraid to speak out in case I’m called a bigot/TERF. I don’t believe that a man can become a woman but I would use people’s chosen pronouns to be polite.

I feel strongly that male-bodied people should not be able to access female spaces (including changing rooms and toilets). One of my very good friends from my university days is extremely supportive of trans rights and was ranting to me this afternoon about women’s toilets being for all women and not just females. I would normally ignore these comments to avoid arguments as she can get very heated. This time though I decided to explain (calmly and reasonably) why I didn’t agree.

My friend said that she found it astonishing that I would take that position “when many people would consider me intersex” and pointed out that I never question my own right to use the women’s loos. I asked her what she meant and she said that because I have PCOS, most TRAs and some doctors would not call me female and would include me in the intersex category. She said that I should have more sympathy for people with gender dysphoria because like them, I try to change my body to fit with my belief that I am female by taking medication to give me periods and reduce hair growth.

I tried to argue that there are thousands of women with PCOS and that they all have XX chromosomes and are female. I also pointed out that the medication is to bring back my periods, which I would have biologically if it wasn’t for my hormonal imbalance. She just kept arguing despite seeing that I was getting tearful and said that if the thousands of women with PCOS were correctly considered intersex, it would break the idea that intersex is an extremely rare group. She said that society avoids categorising PCOS as intersex to maintain the idea of two fixed sexes and encourages people with PCOS to medicate so that they fit better into the “female binary”.

I was so upset to have my sex questioned and told her so, but she just replied that is how trans people feel. Although she may have wanted to hurt me because of my GC view, she genuinely seemed to think that having PCOS means I am intersex and that my treatment for PCOS is basically to reduce my gender dysphoria so that I feel more female.

I’m not really sure what I’m asking for here but I hoped that MNers on this topic who are better informed than me can help me articulate why her view of PCOS as intersex is wrong and reassure me that I correct in believing that I am fully female (I can’t believe I even had to write that last bit). I am pretty sure that our friendship is over so I doubt I’ll have this argument with her again but it would still help me to know exactly why her thinking is wrong.

I am devastated to have lost her friendship and to have been made to feel less than female because of my health condition. I also don’t understand why she is so supportive of trans people choosing their gender and yet wants to tell me which category I’m really in. It is offensive and upsetting.

If you got to the end of this, thank you for reading. I hope I don’t sound like I’ve made this is up -frankly, I find it hard to believe too. The most upsetting part is that even though I am almost convinced she is wrong, it has still planted a seed of doubt because it plays on my insecurities about being hairier etc than most other women.

Thank you for any advice.

I'm fairly sure counting women with PCOS as "intersex" is just part of the trans activist agenda to make people believe that sex isn't binary and it's "more complicated than that". (It isn't, not really.)

The general public is starting to get braver about saying, "Actually, no, this is all a bit silly. If you have a vagina you're not a man" and so some trans activists are now claiming to be "intersex" as well, to try and shut down that conversation.

I'd be willing to bet that quite a few of the trans activists now claiming to be "intersex" on the basis that they have PCOS don't even have PCOS. It's just that no one can prove whether they have it or not so we just have to take their word for it when they say they do.

I've had this from a TRA on a forum before.
I have PCOS.

As we all know, DSDs are genetic / chromosomal conditions present at birth, not acquired endocrine conditions like PCOS.

The attempt to include things like PCOS under the DSD umbrella is their pathetic attempt to make it seems as though there is a spectrum of sex, that it is woolly and nebulous, that you can hover between male and female. Anything that blurs the sex line for them plays into their agenda.
I'm not sure why they are so obsessed with DSDs anyway, it has been clarified beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no higher incidence of DSDs in the trans population than the general population, and that figure remains steady at 0.018% of live births.

If PCOS were a DSD, you would be under the care of a genetic specialist, rather than an endocrinologist.
ONLY XX women can have PCOS, ovaries being the main requirement for the disease.

In conclusion, your "friend" has willingly hurt your feelings to pander to the utter ridiculousness of her ideology. She has gladly thrown you and your condition under the bus of her wokeness in order to appease the feelings of, ultimately, men.

Your "friend" is a fucking arsehole.

I beg your pardon about us black women now what are they saying??!!!

🤬🤬

🤣🤣🤣. What on Earth do you think a “proper woman” is if you can’t be black???? Though actually not funny.🤬

Oh OP.

How many biological males, I wonder, have polycystic ovaries?

A big. Fat. Zero.

Your friend is an ill informed, zealot twit parroting stuff she does not understand.

Oh absolutely fuck off. Intersex is now not a 'scientific' term 😂

The mental gymnastics are worthy of a medal

And they can also fuck off some more for trying to attach that label to infertility. I have never met a woman struggling with infertility who's considered herself 'intersex'

Oh cool. I've had recurrent miscarriages, probably for hormonal reasons, does that make me intersex and therefore part of the rainbow gang now?

🤔

Like, what even are words.

'The sun isn't just a name given to the star at the centre of the solar system. Is it an umbrella term with a rich history that can mean the moon, if it so identifies'.

It's useful to TRAs to pretend that there is an overlap in testosterone production between men and women when it comes to the male DSD athletes like Caster Semenya - they insist that these male people are "women with high testosterone", and imply that that is due to a condition like PCOS and therefore they should not be excluded from women's competitions. But of course they are males with male DSDs and they have normal testosterone levels for men.
When people point out their masculine faces and bodies, the TRAs say "ooh, racist, that's just what black women look like, don't police femininity, don't insist that every woman conforms to you white cishet beauty norms" etc, etc. As a black woman myself, this is particularly enraging.
And of course, coming back to the "overlap", it does not exist. PCOS sufferers have testosterone levels of about 2.5nmol per litre and low testosterone for a man is around 8-10nmol per litre. That low level is usually only if they have some sort of medical condition or are having to suppress their testosterone for cancer treatment. Most men have much higher levels.

OMG. Your ex-friend is an asshole. A stupid one at that. PCOS is a medical condition that afflicts WOMEN. OBVIOUSLY!! You're better off without her - with friends like that, who needs enemies? Instead of being sad, try to appreciate that you now know who she is and how she has been viewing you. And you can spend your time on people who are nice and not batshit crazy.
Be kind to yourself.

I bet this "friend" self-identifies as a Very Kind Inclusive Progressive Good Person Who Is On The Right Side Of History. Probably polishing her Fluffy Glittery Halo as we speak.

I’m surprised that menopause hasn’t been turned into an intersex condition yet

By the warped 'logic' of these extreme transactivists it probably should be. But they don't actually want their mums and grandmas to be part of their special club.

So many brilliant and witty comments here!

The level of misogyny from TRAs is staggering. A woman’s value is more than just an ability to reproduce!

TRAs seem to be undermining their own argument that “transwomen are women” by suggesting that only women who can “breed” are female, and saying that women with PCOS or going through the menopause are intersex / not fully female. The mental gymnastics make my head hurt.

TRAs are the most gender biased and misogynist of all. Their definition of women with PCOS / menopause as intersex isn’t too far of a stretch from the “unwomen” in The Handmaid’s Tale.

If she tries it on with you again do take the ammunition from this thread and be absolutely withering

Sending you love xx

Haven't read whole thread. You need ovaries in order for them to be poly cystic. So it is not possible to have PCOS unless you're female. This person is stupid as well as cruel. So sorry - I know from friends who have the condition that it's enough of a trial without having to put up with this additional nonsense! I hope you're ok. 💐

You knew this person from University?

If it was a science based degree, she seriously needs to ask for a refund.

"RAs seem to be undermining their own argument that “transwomen are women” by suggesting that only women who can “breed” are female, and saying that women with PCOS or going through the menopause are intersex / not fully female. The mental gymnastics make my head hurt."

I think it's more that they are saying that since women who cannot get pregnant are considered female, therefore reproductive capacity has nothing to do with whether we are truly male or female. It's really an error, of course, as male and female are not defined by "pregnant" vs "not pregnant" but by adaptation to produce testes (sperm) vs ovaries (eggs). Clearly, someone can have ovaries without being currently pregnant, or without ever becoming pregnant! TRA's just are mis-stating the definitions of male and female, and are relying on the fact most people aren't biologists. Hence, most people won't be able to tease out the incoherence of their position.

In addition, pregnancy/childbirth is not the only thing that is defined by being the kind of person who is adapted to reproduce as a female. When a woman runs out of eggs and hits menopause, does she magically change from Female to NotFemale? No, she also is the same KIND of person as when she was fertile. She's just older and her body is doing the appropriate thing that it was adapted to do as a female body at that age!

The TRA argument is really about changing the definition of male and female, which changes how we think about what it is to be male or female. As I see it, the purpose of changing the definition is to change how we organize society, so that people who are not female can access resources intended for female-bodied people. If female is defined as the sex adapted to having eggs, then people who make sperm cannot access female resources. So the definition needs to be changed to give those people what they want. In other words, it's about changing the definition from one that is scientifically useful and that is useful to females, to one that is NOT useful to females, but is useful to male-bodied people who wish to have access to resources that were set aside for females.

I have PCOS. I have also borne children. Am I also intersex?

drop the friend, she’s a terrible and ignorant human being.

People with PCOS never father children, or get prostate cancer, produce semen or have Y chromosomes. I’m struggling to see what would make their sex less female?

There’s no such thing as partially female. You either are, or you aren’t. As you have ovaries, you are. Trying to tell you otherwise is cruel, but also just moronic.

You are a woman. So am I - although I no longer have ovaries. Whether they are there or not, function well or not, we are women because we have two x chromosomes.

Your friend is a woman - but she is also a moron.

The lack of knowledge of some TRA is staggering. Your body has followed a normal developmental pathway for a female. PCOS is an endocrine disorder that doesn’t affect the development of sex organs only their functioning. It’s not even clear if it is a sex hormone disorder or if the raised testosterone is linked to insulin resistance.
Even the NHS isn’t certainhttps://www.nhs.uk/conditions/polycystic-ovary-syndrome-pcos/causes/