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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans guidance out "in next fortnight" - Keegan in The Times - RSE consultation also mentioned

107 replies

ResisterRex · 23/06/2023 19:40

Here:

Gillian Keegan: ‘Children have been through so much — you couldn’t pick a worse time to strike’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/984e449a-11d9-11ee-a92d-cf7c831c99b5?shareToken=13b87826a5f64a40bc85211dcd51490d

"Another contentious issue on Keegan’s desk is trans guidance for schools. This week a debate has raged over how to deal with children who identify as cats, dinosaurs or even the moon.

The guidance, which is due to be published in the next fortnight, will be detailed enough to be helpful to teachers in such situations, Keegan promises. “That’s the whole reason it’s there. I know it’s a very polarised issue, teachers should be guided through this.”

The guidance will recommend that children are able to “socially transition” — to use a pronoun of their choice — as long as they have parental consent.

This has already led to a backlash from Tory MPs on the right of the party, who have described it as a “great social experiment”.

“It’s a tricky subject but I think parental consent is the key driver for this,” Keegan says. “Schools aren’t there as doctors or parents. They are there as educators. Parental consent is the most important thing. Parents are responsible for their child.”

Keegan is keen to draw some lines, however. She says that the current guidance is already clear that children must not be allowed to use toilets or changing facilities of the opposite sex.

“We certainly make sure that safe spaces are protected and it’s biological,” she says. “A lot of schools have unisex toilets, a lot of places have single cubicle toilets. If you look at some of the newer toilet builds, they’re units with the toilet and hand basin inside.”

Would it be logical to assume that the government will follow “best practice” from elsewhere? UK Athletics has banned transgender women from competing in the female category across all of its events on grounds of fairness.

Keegan suggests that biological boys will be barred from competing against girls. “You can assume I’ve been logical and you can assume that I’ve used common sense and logic for drafting.”

Equally contentious has been the long-awaited sex and relationships education guidance — due at the end of this year. The curriculum had not been updated for 20 years, so it has been revamped to include issues such as pornography, sexting and consent.

This has led to a proliferation of companies providing lessons in schools, but many are unwilling to share the resources they are teaching for commercial reasons, to the alarm of some parents.

Keegan wrote to schools in March telling them not to enter into contracts with companies that would not allow their materials to be seen and said these should be freely available to parents.

However, a court case this week backed a company wanting to protect its materials. Parents can go to the school and see the resources but cannot make a copy or take it away to seek advice. Is that good enough? “Well we’ve obviously asked a panel to figure it out,” Keegan says. “But I think what is age appropriate has become a big question.”

Ultimately she wants a central bank of resources that schools can draw on and will ask Oak National Academy, a body that creates lesson plans, to do this. Schools would remain free to choose, she said, adding: “The most important thing is what is taught in schools is age appropriate.”"

OP posts:
FedgeHund · 24/06/2023 21:33

swallowedAfly · 24/06/2023 21:21

It’s still mind boggling for example that a woman who took her child to Thailand to be castrated could be given so much influence and sway over policies and practices regarding vulnerable children. Honestly it would be unimaginable if it wasn’t true.

I don't understand why the NHS staff are not reporting their colleagues and parents to the police and they in turn send to the CPS. The NHS website once advised this for adults with these mental issues as it was considered a crime.

The same for teachers why are they not reporting their colleagues and trainers to the police of school safeguarding leads are not doing their jobs properly.

SunnyEgg · 24/06/2023 21:41

It is mind boggling but we’re still told by many we’re wrong and should just let it happen

Many countries seem to have completely been engulfed by it with no way out

I think we have a chance, but it’s not going to be easy

OldCrone · 24/06/2023 21:42

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 21:11

@OldCrone exactly.

It has been said before on these boards but we really are coming to the crux of it now. We need an objective definition of gender identity just as we have diagnostic criteria for mental illnesses and psychological conditions or we have clear enough definitions of mainstream religious beliefs, philosophical positions, political allegiances etc

If we are going to legislate protections and dedicate public resources for something we need a clear objective definition for what it is.

How on Earth the GRA got pushed through in 2004 I don’t know. There were excellent arguments against it, all the problems we have now were foreseen as possible by someone. The Hansard record shows this.

I’ll confess though that I never thought child transition would happen due to the ethical problems with it being so clear. That one just seemed beyond the pale. I still struggle to get my head around how we, supposedly civilised nations, have done and continue to do this to our children.

We really need to push for a definition. When politicians go on about trans people and particularly 'trans children', we need to push them about what they actually mean by 'trans'. Who are these people who identify as trans and what are the defining features that make them 'trans'.

Forget 'what is a woman?' That's been done to death. When they talk about 'trans people' or 'trans children' they need to be asked 'what do you mean by trans?' I think they'll struggle with that one even more than 'what is a woman?' And if they use the term 'gender identity' they need to define that as well.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 24/06/2023 21:52

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 21:11

@OldCrone exactly.

It has been said before on these boards but we really are coming to the crux of it now. We need an objective definition of gender identity just as we have diagnostic criteria for mental illnesses and psychological conditions or we have clear enough definitions of mainstream religious beliefs, philosophical positions, political allegiances etc

If we are going to legislate protections and dedicate public resources for something we need a clear objective definition for what it is.

How on Earth the GRA got pushed through in 2004 I don’t know. There were excellent arguments against it, all the problems we have now were foreseen as possible by someone. The Hansard record shows this.

I’ll confess though that I never thought child transition would happen due to the ethical problems with it being so clear. That one just seemed beyond the pale. I still struggle to get my head around how we, supposedly civilised nations, have done and continue to do this to our children.

This is a clusterfuck of epic proportions.
I've always thought that going for children would be their undoing and it's been frustrating that the extent of capture in schools has been covered up. That recording and the letter from the 14 years olds lays bare what's happening to children in terms of gaslighting and removing boundaries and this is the time when parents (and everyone else) must speak up & challenge schools.

LonginesPrime · 24/06/2023 23:04

How on Earth the GRA got pushed through in 2004 I don’t know.

If you look at where the internet, social media and personal mobile devices are now compared to where we were in 2004, it was a completely different world back then.

LonginesPrime · 24/06/2023 23:13

We really need to push for a definition. When politicians go on about trans people and particularly 'trans children', we need to push them about what they actually mean by 'trans'. Who are these people who identify as trans and what are the defining features that make them 'trans'.

I agree.

I also think that unless this new guidance makes it very clear that children will be protected from having to use compelled speech, we need to be pushing for robust psychological research confirming that forcing children to be complicit in the rituals and/or delusions of gender ideology isn't actually harmful to them.

If, as Dr Cass suggests, there isn't enough research yet to say whether social transition is harmful or not, then this means there is a potential risk of harm to these children, as we don't really have any idea what the psychological impact could be (although it's pretty easy to hazard a guess). So why would the DfE promote a practice with no evidence base that could potentially cause harm to children?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 24/06/2023 23:18

Agreed LonginesPrime. We need to keep pointing out that this is a social experiment being conducted on the nation's children by activists and nobody has any clue what the long term impact on them will be - let alone on society. It's also politically driven and schools are meant to be politically impartial.

RealityFan · 24/06/2023 23:19

There won't be a definition. That's the whole point of trans, not to define itself, only to define itself against women, and to re-define women, and then to prevent women defining themselves.

As linguistic and metaphysical sleight of hand, it's sheer evil genius.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 25/06/2023 07:41

swallowedAfly · 24/06/2023 21:21

It’s still mind boggling for example that a woman who took her child to Thailand to be castrated could be given so much influence and sway over policies and practices regarding vulnerable children. Honestly it would be unimaginable if it wasn’t true.

To be honest it is incredible that she wasn’t arrested on her return.

FGM has been mentioned previously on this thread. Breast ironing also. If you take a child abroad to subject her to FGM you will be arrested on your return to the UK.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 25/06/2023 07:44

RealityFan · 24/06/2023 23:19

There won't be a definition. That's the whole point of trans, not to define itself, only to define itself against women, and to re-define women, and then to prevent women defining themselves.

As linguistic and metaphysical sleight of hand, it's sheer evil genius.

If it cannot be defined then perhaps it should not have legal recognition.

SunnyEgg · 25/06/2023 07:46

Something was linked on here as a definition in law maybe in Ireland (?)

It was the biggest load of nonsense circular writing I have seen. They couldn’t do it and make any sense.

AlphaTransWoman · 27/10/2023 23:29

Question for those of you opposed to social transition in schools.

If it's OK for adults to choose between the "male" and "female" dress codes based on their own preference (say in the workplace or on a cruise liner), is there any reason not to extend this to a child in terms of school dress codes or uniforms?

If not, why not?

RealityFan · 27/10/2023 23:34

AlphaTransWoman · 27/10/2023 23:29

Question for those of you opposed to social transition in schools.

If it's OK for adults to choose between the "male" and "female" dress codes based on their own preference (say in the workplace or on a cruise liner), is there any reason not to extend this to a child in terms of school dress codes or uniforms?

If not, why not?

Kids can wear skirts or trousers. But they cannot expect their mates to affirm a gender contrary to their biological sex (previously known as "sex"), or be obliged by teachers to do the same. Skirt, trousers, sackcloth and ashes, whatever, knock yourself out. But boys are boys, and girls are girls. And male teachers are males, and female teachers are females.

You've mentioned dress and dress codes multiple times now, why is this such a preoccupation for you? It isn't for the rest of us.

ValancyRedfern · 27/10/2023 23:35

A lot of schools no longer have girls' and boys' uniforms, just a list of uniform items which includes both trousers and skirts. I don't see any need for separate uniforms for boys and girls and have successfully campaigned to have trousers added to the uniform at the girls' school where I teach. None of this has anything to do with social transition in schools.

Hoardasurass · 27/10/2023 23:42

AlphaTransWoman · 27/10/2023 23:29

Question for those of you opposed to social transition in schools.

If it's OK for adults to choose between the "male" and "female" dress codes based on their own preference (say in the workplace or on a cruise liner), is there any reason not to extend this to a child in terms of school dress codes or uniforms?

If not, why not?

If we were just talking about clothes noone would care but it's not just clothes is it.
It's names, pronouns, gaslighting an entire school, letting them take part in the opposite sex sports teams, using the wrong facilities for their sex and worst of all basically lieing to the child and pushing them towards medically transitioning when most will grow out of it.
Basically let kids ware what they want but don't tell them that clothes have anything to do with your sex or gender nor should they be treated any differently from any other child of their sex

AlphaTransWoman · 27/10/2023 23:43

RealityFan · 27/10/2023 23:34

Kids can wear skirts or trousers. But they cannot expect their mates to affirm a gender contrary to their biological sex (previously known as "sex"), or be obliged by teachers to do the same. Skirt, trousers, sackcloth and ashes, whatever, knock yourself out. But boys are boys, and girls are girls. And male teachers are males, and female teachers are females.

You've mentioned dress and dress codes multiple times now, why is this such a preoccupation for you? It isn't for the rest of us.

Not sure I agree about pronouns.

Repeatedly and deliberately misgendering a colleague or customer in the workplace when they have asked you not to do so would be very rude and may constitute harassment. I would say it is roughly equivalent to deliberately mispronouncing someone's name or calling them by a nickname when they have asked you not to do so.

Part of what schools are for is to teach kids how to behave like adults so they are ready for adult life. So similar rules of courtesy about how people should address each other ought to be encouraged.

I'm glad you agree with me on the skirt issue though.

BettyFilous · 27/10/2023 23:49

Part of what schools are for is to teach kids how to behave like adults so they are ready for adult life.

I don’t see how teaching adolescents that other people matter too and that your wants don’t trump their needs is incompatible with preparing them for adulthood. Acceding to their every demand does not.

AlphaTransWoman · 27/10/2023 23:51

@Hoardasurass

Freedom of preferred gender name/pronoun/uniform does not imply access to opposite birth sex sports, changing rooms etc where this could be harmful to others. This applies to children as it does to adults. There have been some good discussions on other threads about how compromises might work in these areas.

RealityFan · 27/10/2023 23:58

AlphaTransWoman · 27/10/2023 23:43

Not sure I agree about pronouns.

Repeatedly and deliberately misgendering a colleague or customer in the workplace when they have asked you not to do so would be very rude and may constitute harassment. I would say it is roughly equivalent to deliberately mispronouncing someone's name or calling them by a nickname when they have asked you not to do so.

Part of what schools are for is to teach kids how to behave like adults so they are ready for adult life. So similar rules of courtesy about how people should address each other ought to be encouraged.

I'm glad you agree with me on the skirt issue though.

Alpha, they're boys. They're girls. You might be distracted by so called harrasment on misgendering, I'm more interested in kids observing reality and acting in accordance of that.

In other words, being taught about two sexes and mammalian reproduction in biology class, and then not within the same class being compelled to bury that knowledge when a boy wants to deny science by insisting classmates address him as a girl.

Mammalian reproduction doesn't give a shit about what clothes anyone is wearing (the guy can be kitted out in The Freda Wallace Fetishwear Collection 2023 for all I care).

To deny this is to deny reality. This trumps the first world navel gazing self centeredness of GI.

Hoardasurass · 28/10/2023 00:04

AlphaTransWoman · 27/10/2023 23:51

@Hoardasurass

Freedom of preferred gender name/pronoun/uniform does not imply access to opposite birth sex sports, changing rooms etc where this could be harmful to others. This applies to children as it does to adults. There have been some good discussions on other threads about how compromises might work in these areas.

Perhaps you could tell stonewall, mermaids, scot gov et al that.
Also noone should be forced to call someone by the wrong pronouns for their sex. So no name changes, compelled speach or lies about being able to change sex or anyone having a gendered soul ie no religious indoctrinating of children.
But yes let them ware whatever they are comfortable in

Rudderneck · 28/10/2023 01:15

I don't think kids should ever be socially transitioned, but I also think that schools aren't the appropriate level to enforce that. Parental rights to manage their child's health care and other decisions like this is the line that needs to be drawn, and it will only cause more problems later to play fast and loose for easy results.

Schools also have a responsibility to have good lessons, and a safe place for kids, and to be open with parents. And also, not to take on teaching about topics that are really up to the family. But medical care is up to the parents.

Preventing bogus dangerous medical interventions needs to happen through the medical system and scientific and academic community. There shouldn't be doctors telling parents this is a good idea in the first place.

TooBigForMyBoots · 28/10/2023 01:23

RealityFan · 24/06/2023 23:19

There won't be a definition. That's the whole point of trans, not to define itself, only to define itself against women, and to re-define women, and then to prevent women defining themselves.

As linguistic and metaphysical sleight of hand, it's sheer evil genius.

Given Tory Secretary of State for Education Keegan can't define "Girl", it's hardly surprising she can't define other things.Hmm

She is unfit for the job.

SinnerBoy · 28/10/2023 03:29

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 09:05

I think your comments about coercion were most perceptive.

IcakethereforeIam · 28/10/2023 04:20

Perhaps schools should be teaching resilience. Being misgendered =/= the sky falling down.