Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans guidance out "in next fortnight" - Keegan in The Times - RSE consultation also mentioned

107 replies

ResisterRex · 23/06/2023 19:40

Here:

Gillian Keegan: ‘Children have been through so much — you couldn’t pick a worse time to strike’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/984e449a-11d9-11ee-a92d-cf7c831c99b5?shareToken=13b87826a5f64a40bc85211dcd51490d

"Another contentious issue on Keegan’s desk is trans guidance for schools. This week a debate has raged over how to deal with children who identify as cats, dinosaurs or even the moon.

The guidance, which is due to be published in the next fortnight, will be detailed enough to be helpful to teachers in such situations, Keegan promises. “That’s the whole reason it’s there. I know it’s a very polarised issue, teachers should be guided through this.”

The guidance will recommend that children are able to “socially transition” — to use a pronoun of their choice — as long as they have parental consent.

This has already led to a backlash from Tory MPs on the right of the party, who have described it as a “great social experiment”.

“It’s a tricky subject but I think parental consent is the key driver for this,” Keegan says. “Schools aren’t there as doctors or parents. They are there as educators. Parental consent is the most important thing. Parents are responsible for their child.”

Keegan is keen to draw some lines, however. She says that the current guidance is already clear that children must not be allowed to use toilets or changing facilities of the opposite sex.

“We certainly make sure that safe spaces are protected and it’s biological,” she says. “A lot of schools have unisex toilets, a lot of places have single cubicle toilets. If you look at some of the newer toilet builds, they’re units with the toilet and hand basin inside.”

Would it be logical to assume that the government will follow “best practice” from elsewhere? UK Athletics has banned transgender women from competing in the female category across all of its events on grounds of fairness.

Keegan suggests that biological boys will be barred from competing against girls. “You can assume I’ve been logical and you can assume that I’ve used common sense and logic for drafting.”

Equally contentious has been the long-awaited sex and relationships education guidance — due at the end of this year. The curriculum had not been updated for 20 years, so it has been revamped to include issues such as pornography, sexting and consent.

This has led to a proliferation of companies providing lessons in schools, but many are unwilling to share the resources they are teaching for commercial reasons, to the alarm of some parents.

Keegan wrote to schools in March telling them not to enter into contracts with companies that would not allow their materials to be seen and said these should be freely available to parents.

However, a court case this week backed a company wanting to protect its materials. Parents can go to the school and see the resources but cannot make a copy or take it away to seek advice. Is that good enough? “Well we’ve obviously asked a panel to figure it out,” Keegan says. “But I think what is age appropriate has become a big question.”

Ultimately she wants a central bank of resources that schools can draw on and will ask Oak National Academy, a body that creates lesson plans, to do this. Schools would remain free to choose, she said, adding: “The most important thing is what is taught in schools is age appropriate.”"

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 23/06/2023 23:33

WarriorN · 23/06/2023 20:43

I'm wondering if it's setting it up as a belief.

These parents follow a religion. The pronoun stuff is problematic there though. A child with send could easily not get that right. And the school would be expected to enforce it? Fuck that

I don't see how setting it up as a belief would work. You have the right to practice your belief, not to impose it upon others.

Lizzy is a Jehova's Witness. Her parents therefore withdraw her from RE and birthday celebrations. Her school has to respect this and provide supervision away from her class during these activities. What the parents cannot do is require the entire school to refrain from these activities.

TheBiologyStupid · 24/06/2023 01:22

Are they "kite flying" to see how various options play out? Sorry to be cynical...

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 07:30

If it is recognised as a belief, “Jane” gets called Jane and bullying Jane for believing in gender identity is not permitted however no children or staff are compelled to enter into the belief with Jane by using wrong sex pronouns and changing rooms, toilets, PE, sleeping arrangements on trips are strictly sex based.

Possibly Jane gets a separate place to change etc if that is workable.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 07:34

Just like in secular schools no one expects to recite prayers in assembly, the same should be true of gender identity belief.

Perhaps Stonewall will set up their own religious schools where everything functions around gender identity instead of sex if they don’t manage to impose their gender identity beliefs on all of us through public services and state institutions.

IncomingTraffic · 24/06/2023 07:44

i suspect she’s worried about the Tory thing about ‘not interfering within the family’.

But actually, the sensible line on ‘social transition’ would be that schools only participate in this if it’s being done under medical supervision and with a letter from the relevant specialist to support this. Maybe require it to be part of the EHCP process(with additional resources provided for EHCPs, so this doesn’t make things even worse for children with SEND).

Although the TRAs would be livid at it being viewed that way.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 07:51

The problem is, is gender identity a belief or a medical diagnosis?

Does it require a medical diagnosis treatment on the NHS before schools recognise it in a particular child?

If it is a belief then that wouldn’t be necessary, parents could declare it. Older children and teenagers could declare it for themselves too.

It society recognises gender identity as a belief then does the NHS need to be involved?

Does the NHS provide circumcision for people who practise it as part of their religion?

As a society we haven’t really worked out how to treat gender identity in law, policy and society. We haven’t thought it through. Things have been implemented without due diligence and now as pps have said we have a complete mess to unpick.

SunnyEgg · 24/06/2023 07:55

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 07:30

If it is recognised as a belief, “Jane” gets called Jane and bullying Jane for believing in gender identity is not permitted however no children or staff are compelled to enter into the belief with Jane by using wrong sex pronouns and changing rooms, toilets, PE, sleeping arrangements on trips are strictly sex based.

Possibly Jane gets a separate place to change etc if that is workable.

This is where I’m at.

If parent and child decide to do this no bullying can take place but pronouns are not compelled for others and boys are not in girls change rooms or sports etc

WarriorN · 24/06/2023 07:58

Yes that's the crux of the issue. And why I had issues with Maya's ruling. As it could mean than GI is a belief.

Regarding children It must be a diagnosis.

I think some thing that changing a name and a pronoun is just like dressing up, getting a hair style etc.

Pronouns are anatomically linked. The words woman or man or boy or girl are anatomical terms. Children cannot transition legally.

The "propose to" part of the EA is problematic here. It was written at a time when it was very rare for children to be into all this.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 08:11

IncomingTraffic · 24/06/2023 07:44

i suspect she’s worried about the Tory thing about ‘not interfering within the family’.

But actually, the sensible line on ‘social transition’ would be that schools only participate in this if it’s being done under medical supervision and with a letter from the relevant specialist to support this. Maybe require it to be part of the EHCP process(with additional resources provided for EHCPs, so this doesn’t make things even worse for children with SEND).

Although the TRAs would be livid at it being viewed that way.

I agree, if we as a society decide that it is a medical condition this should be the way that is handled.

No the TRAs won’t be happy. Their goal is that their beliefs are imposed on all of us and that society is based around subjective gender identity instead of objective sex. The work we have to do is finding a balance between the rights of those who believe in gender identity or who have a diagnosis of it (but I think we are a long way from a clear medical definitions) and those who don’t believe in it.

Sex is really the only logical way to organise society because it is objectively immutable and observable.

Gender identity can’t be pinned down in the same way.

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 08:19

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 07:30

If it is recognised as a belief, “Jane” gets called Jane and bullying Jane for believing in gender identity is not permitted however no children or staff are compelled to enter into the belief with Jane by using wrong sex pronouns and changing rooms, toilets, PE, sleeping arrangements on trips are strictly sex based.

Possibly Jane gets a separate place to change etc if that is workable.

But 'Jane' will believe he is being bullied.

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 08:23

I don't disagree BTW. JKR summed it up perfectly: Dress however you please. Call yourself whatever you like. Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you. ^ Live your best life in peace and security. But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?^ Nobody should be mistreated for being different, and that includes the boy who wants to be called Jane and/or wear a dress at school. But it needs to be presented that way, as a choice not as a belief.

MadamPickle · 24/06/2023 08:26

I would like it to be made clear that 'Jane' is not allowed to bully other children who don't think that 'Jane' is the opposite sex either directly or by trying to get them into trouble with members of staff, and that schools are not to force other children to pretend that 'Jane' has changed sex and in fact never was the sex (or name) that they all knew them by at primary school.

HipTightOnions · 24/06/2023 08:32

Yes that's the crux of the issue. And why I had issues with Maya's ruling. As it could mean than GI is a belief.

I wondered about this too. Would GI pass the WORIADS test?

HipTightOnions · 24/06/2023 08:34

If parent and child decide to do this no bullying can take place but pronouns are not compelled for others and boys are not in girls change rooms or sports etc

But in that case, would the child have "socially transitioned"?

ResisterRex · 24/06/2023 08:35

But they've never pressed for GI to be a belief, intriguingly. They want it to be a fact.

OP posts:
JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 08:38

GI is as WORIADS as most religions. In most democratic societies participation or belief in any religion cannot be enforced upon people. This is one of the concerns about enshrining GI beliefs in law.

rabbitwoman · 24/06/2023 08:41

My LEA obviously has a gender critical person in a very influential position - we had transgender schools guidance sent out to us in September, with transgender trend, sex matters and the safe schools alliance in the acknowledgements. It's really wise and fair and even handed.

It states that pronouns and names etc should not be changed without parental consent. It states that children should not be compelled to use counter intuitive language, and they cannot be punished for not doing it. Any sign of gender incongruence should be flagged as a safeguarding issue.

When it comes to socially transitioning, it's not necessarily the teachers but the older students who are most complicit. Prefects, mentors, sixth formers who have set up the rainbow clubs and run the Pride campaigns etc can be very militant. But as soon as the message gets out that you don't have to go along with this if you don't want to, and the school will support you, then believe me, many many more kids will be speaking out.

IncomingTraffic · 24/06/2023 08:56

I think that if there’s to be any ‘transition’ - social or otherwise, we have to agree that this is a medical condition and - in a properly evidence-based way, if the evidence suggests this actually works as treatment/management - that the treatment requires the world to make ‘reasonable adjustments’ in terms of playing along. That doesn’t necessarily mean getting to use opposite sex facilities, because of the ‘reasonable’ bit. It may be asking people to use different pronouns, as an adjustment.

If it’s a belief, then it is utterly unacceptable to expect the whole world to orient themselves and their behaviour to suit it. That includes preferred pronouns. No one needs to play along with it ‘validate’ your beliefs.

(as an aside, I hate the term ‘validate’. I work in a field where it regularly comes up in relation to the research process. And I want to stamp my foot and say ‘no. You’re not ‘validating’ anything. The paradigm you’re using is falsification. You just know that you haven’t demonstrated it’s wrong and can feel sufficiently confident on that basis. Getting some stakeholders to agree doesn’t prove validity).

LonginesPrime · 24/06/2023 09:00

HipTightOnions · 24/06/2023 08:34

If parent and child decide to do this no bullying can take place but pronouns are not compelled for others and boys are not in girls change rooms or sports etc

But in that case, would the child have "socially transitioned"?

Furthermore, would social transition under those conditions even meet whatever psychological needs are driving the child's wish to be someone else in the first place?

I feel like setting these kinds of boundaries is not only beneficial to the people around the trans kid who constitute their social world, but it would also remove the appeal of the magical fantasy element of social transition for children considering it, which might prevent children wrongly believing they can actually change sex.

You only have to listen to detransitioners saying "and I've realised I can never actually be the opposite sex" after the hormones and surgery, which was a huge revelation to them after having been sold the idea that everyone must validate their new identity or they'll be in serious trouble.

Trans people who clearly don't "pass" often talk about how exhausting it is to be trans and how much constant work it takes to maintain their image in order to "pass" and I think some of them genuinely believe they are passing as the opposite sex when in reality society has been groomed to pretend they pass. It doesn't do children (or adults) any favours in the long run.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/06/2023 09:05

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 08:19

But 'Jane' will believe he is being bullied.

Then teachers will need to explain that it isn’t bullying, children who are using correct sex pronouns are simply reflecting their sex based understanding of the world. If however they threaten or insult Jane, damage Jane’s property, call Jane names, physically assault Jane etc that would constitute bullying.

There must be a definition of bullying which doesn’t include pretending to share someone’s beliefs.

Ironically if gender identity wasn’t being forced on people by such authoritarian means and didn’t include people using opposite sex spaces and services then I think more people probably would play the pronoun game to be polite.

Being kind and polite come from having the free choice to be neither with limited consequences.

No one is being kind or polite when they don’t have the choice because they will lose their job, or be convicted of a hate crime, that is just complying with rules imposed by coercive measures.

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 09:26

@PomegranateOfPersephone

100% agree.

SunnyEgg · 24/06/2023 09:37

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 09:26

@PomegranateOfPersephone

100% agree.

I do too.

Plus the girls’ recording has changed the situation.

You can state there are only two sexes and you can’t change sex in class and not be met with coercive tactics, such as despicable or leave the school. Any number of students could state this.

The social part only works if you beat out any element of biological reality.

It would be strange to have a student state this and then punished for using the wrong pronoun.

Students don’t want to be compelled and if they are then expect more letters and recordings.

ResisterRex · 24/06/2023 09:50

Not England but the Isle of Man:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/23/ballakermeen-high-school-isle-of-man-gender-self-id-guide/

School hits children with ‘political propaganda’ on gender self-ID

"Secondary school children have been told that gender self-identificationn_ is a “major step forward”.

Ballakermeen High School, one of five schools for pupils aged 11 to 16 on the Isle of Man, published an “LGBTQ+ newsletter” on its website, which was backed by two teachers.
The four-page guide featured a colour-coded map showing “how human rights-compliant legal gender recognition procedures are in Europe and Central Asia”.
Countries with a dark red shade allowed full self-determination of gender, while those with lighter shades required a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Those not shaded, including the UK, did not allow self-identification at all.
But students were told: “The darker the colour, the better!”"

And:

"... the guide at Ballakermeen High School, in Douglas, praised Switzerland, Norway, Belgium, and Ireland for allowing transgender people to “legally switch genders by simply declaring they are male or female”.
The guide, from May 2022, appeared to endorse claims from the controversial LGBT+ charity Stonewall, telling pupils: “In the UK, activist groups such as Stonewall say legal self-identification would be a major step forward in the fight for transgender rights.
“They argue that forcing transgender peoplee_ to prove to doctors that their gender identity is real is invasive and humiliating.”
School ‘showing no understanding’
The guide was criticised by Safe Schools Alliance, a group of parents and teachers focused on safeguarding.
Tanya Carter, from the group, said: “We are disturbed to see yet more political propaganda being aimed at children by their schools.
“This school is showing absolutely no understanding about the conflict between ‘trans’ demands for self-ID and the rights of women and girls, particularly those who are same-sex attracted.”"

OP posts:
HipTightOnions · 24/06/2023 09:50

Students don’t want to be compelled

It's not just students. I am dreading being told I must call a boy "she".

Apollo441 · 24/06/2023 10:14

JellySaurus · 24/06/2023 08:38

GI is as WORIADS as most religions. In most democratic societies participation or belief in any religion cannot be enforced upon people. This is one of the concerns about enshrining GI beliefs in law.

Any religion that sterilises children should be subject to criticism. Why should GI be any different to a religion that practised FGM?