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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans guidance out "in next fortnight" - Keegan in The Times - RSE consultation also mentioned

107 replies

ResisterRex · 23/06/2023 19:40

Here:

Gillian Keegan: ‘Children have been through so much — you couldn’t pick a worse time to strike’

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/984e449a-11d9-11ee-a92d-cf7c831c99b5?shareToken=13b87826a5f64a40bc85211dcd51490d

"Another contentious issue on Keegan’s desk is trans guidance for schools. This week a debate has raged over how to deal with children who identify as cats, dinosaurs or even the moon.

The guidance, which is due to be published in the next fortnight, will be detailed enough to be helpful to teachers in such situations, Keegan promises. “That’s the whole reason it’s there. I know it’s a very polarised issue, teachers should be guided through this.”

The guidance will recommend that children are able to “socially transition” — to use a pronoun of their choice — as long as they have parental consent.

This has already led to a backlash from Tory MPs on the right of the party, who have described it as a “great social experiment”.

“It’s a tricky subject but I think parental consent is the key driver for this,” Keegan says. “Schools aren’t there as doctors or parents. They are there as educators. Parental consent is the most important thing. Parents are responsible for their child.”

Keegan is keen to draw some lines, however. She says that the current guidance is already clear that children must not be allowed to use toilets or changing facilities of the opposite sex.

“We certainly make sure that safe spaces are protected and it’s biological,” she says. “A lot of schools have unisex toilets, a lot of places have single cubicle toilets. If you look at some of the newer toilet builds, they’re units with the toilet and hand basin inside.”

Would it be logical to assume that the government will follow “best practice” from elsewhere? UK Athletics has banned transgender women from competing in the female category across all of its events on grounds of fairness.

Keegan suggests that biological boys will be barred from competing against girls. “You can assume I’ve been logical and you can assume that I’ve used common sense and logic for drafting.”

Equally contentious has been the long-awaited sex and relationships education guidance — due at the end of this year. The curriculum had not been updated for 20 years, so it has been revamped to include issues such as pornography, sexting and consent.

This has led to a proliferation of companies providing lessons in schools, but many are unwilling to share the resources they are teaching for commercial reasons, to the alarm of some parents.

Keegan wrote to schools in March telling them not to enter into contracts with companies that would not allow their materials to be seen and said these should be freely available to parents.

However, a court case this week backed a company wanting to protect its materials. Parents can go to the school and see the resources but cannot make a copy or take it away to seek advice. Is that good enough? “Well we’ve obviously asked a panel to figure it out,” Keegan says. “But I think what is age appropriate has become a big question.”

Ultimately she wants a central bank of resources that schools can draw on and will ask Oak National Academy, a body that creates lesson plans, to do this. Schools would remain free to choose, she said, adding: “The most important thing is what is taught in schools is age appropriate.”"

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Helleofabore · 23/06/2023 19:55

Thanks Rex

That is an interesting article. But back to waiting.

JellySaurus · 23/06/2023 20:02

Ten seconds ago they were saying that teachers should not affirm children claiming they are cats, nor use neo-pronouns demanded by children.

Now they're saying to go ahead and affirm children claiming they are the opposite sex, and use wrong-sex pronouns for them - as long as the parents agree.

What if the parents agree that their children are cats, with pronouns fe/fer/fem? The parents know what's best for their child...

JacquelinePot · 23/06/2023 20:03

Based on that, the new guidance isn't going to be good enough. Colour me surprised.

rogdmum · 23/06/2023 20:09

What will happen is that where children have parents who wish to take a more cautious approach and not have their child’s social transition supported, these children will be given the message that “if only your parents agreed, we would of course support you.” This is a terrible message to give to children and again will paint parents as the bad guys being unsupportive of their child.

ResisterRex · 23/06/2023 20:12

It doesn't look promising. But the dithering and delay with this might not be going in the fence-sitters' favour - of that of the TRAs.

The longer this goes on without the guidance, the longer there is for more awful stories to emerge. That's happening now. So if the new guidance essentially proposes no change, or "trans your gay kids if you like" as the core policy, it'll meet with even fiercer pushback because it will arrive right next to all these stories from what'll have been 2+ weeks' worth.

The stories might not stop now, especially if it seems the guidance will be wishy washy. And the poor handling of this will mean more pressure for the RSE guidance. Fool me once etc.

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Hoardasurass · 23/06/2023 20:27

What I'm getting from that is her personal bias that transing kids is OK just make sure that you tell the parents so we don't get sued

SunnyEgg · 23/06/2023 20:31

What I’m hoping for as top priority is not compelling other people to affirm gender identity with forced pronouns

If parents can say ok fine by me as long as a no is heeded and no one else is compelled

HipTightOnions · 23/06/2023 20:33

Hoardasurass · 23/06/2023 20:27

What I'm getting from that is her personal bias that transing kids is OK just make sure that you tell the parents so we don't get sued

Me too Hoardasurass, loud and clear.

HipTightOnions · 23/06/2023 20:36

SunnyEgg · 23/06/2023 20:31

What I’m hoping for as top priority is not compelling other people to affirm gender identity with forced pronouns

If parents can say ok fine by me as long as a no is heeded and no one else is compelled

I am really worried about this.

What does "socially transitioning" mean for a child, if it's not forcing everyone to call you by "preferred pronouns".

How this fits with the PC of believing in the primacy of sex, goodness knows.

WarriorN · 23/06/2023 20:37

Ultimately she wants a central bank of resources that schools can draw on and will ask Oak National Academy, a body that creates lesson plans, to do this.

Labour had all of this set up. was called the QCA docs.

The Tories decided to let teachers do it themselves with their "new curriculum" they launched almost a decade ago. as a cost cutting and privatisation exercise.

Lots of private companies sprang up to flog their stuff to schools. And then the charities.

Hence the total bloody mess we have now.

JanesLittleGirl · 23/06/2023 20:37

rogdmum · 23/06/2023 20:09

What will happen is that where children have parents who wish to take a more cautious approach and not have their child’s social transition supported, these children will be given the message that “if only your parents agreed, we would of course support you.” This is a terrible message to give to children and again will paint parents as the bad guys being unsupportive of their child.

And looking at this the other way round, if the parents support Jane now being James, can the school force the other 34 kids in the class to call her James and use she/her pronouns? What about their rights?

JanesLittleGirl · 23/06/2023 20:39

He/him/his obviously. See, I'm confused and I'm writing it.

WarriorN · 23/06/2023 20:40

I was reflecting that schools are being expected to diagnose or agree with self diagnosis through pronoun changes etc this week.

We are not allowed to do this in any other capacity or for any other condition.

Though now it appears that parents are allowed to diagnose and we are to accept it - again, we don't do that for other conditions.

LonginesPrime · 23/06/2023 20:41

Disappointing to see confirmation that social transition will be allowed with parental consent - this will merely pile more pressure onto parents who are already struggling to navigate a massively complex and sensitive parenting issue.

Parents may be the experts on their own child, but most are not experts in child development or psychology, so how is it fair to force them to diagnose their own child as trans?

Since the new NHS gender service specification makes it clear that children identifying as trans shouldn't be immediately affirmed and that the causes of gender incongruence should be methodically and holistically examined (including an examination of family views), and since the Cass interim report states that social transition "is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes" (p63), how is it in any way appropriate for the DfE to suggest that parents should be the ones making decisions about their child's social transition?

This policy seems like a pre-Cass, Tavistock-era view, which definitely doesn't feel appropriate now.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Interim-service-specification-for-Specialist-Gender-Incongruence-Services-for-Children-and-Young-People.pdf

WarriorN · 23/06/2023 20:41

The 'guidelines' are setting up a lot of ethical issues here.

Violetparis · 23/06/2023 20:41

Good points already made, yes wondering if parents will have the right to insist that their children aren't compelled to use the chosen pronouns of other children.

LonginesPrime · 23/06/2023 20:43

SunnyEgg · 23/06/2023 20:31

What I’m hoping for as top priority is not compelling other people to affirm gender identity with forced pronouns

If parents can say ok fine by me as long as a no is heeded and no one else is compelled

But that's what social transition is - it can't occur successfully without the compliance of others, otherwise it would lose the "social" aspect.

WarriorN · 23/06/2023 20:43

I'm wondering if it's setting it up as a belief.

These parents follow a religion. The pronoun stuff is problematic there though. A child with send could easily not get that right. And the school would be expected to enforce it? Fuck that

SunnyEgg · 23/06/2023 20:43

HipTightOnions · 23/06/2023 20:36

I am really worried about this.

What does "socially transitioning" mean for a child, if it's not forcing everyone to call you by "preferred pronouns".

How this fits with the PC of believing in the primacy of sex, goodness knows.

I’ve been thinking about this today and removing the compelled speech part is crucial

Idk if a parent can say yes and everyone else keeps their language though

LonginesPrime · 23/06/2023 21:02

Logically, I can't see how the school can support social transition without compelling other pupils and teachers to use the child's requested pronouns.

If the school says to a boy "ok, we accept that you're a girl and we will treat you as a girl because your mum said so", then how can they reconcile that promise to that child with the fact that lack of belief in gender ideology is protected under the Equality Act?

How will they apply their anti-bullying policy, for example? If the school take on the responsibility to treat that boy as a girl, and comply every pupil to respect others and not be mean, are they going to accept that misgendering someone isn't disrespectful and is acceptable?

Because that seems like a world away from where we are currently, and I can't imagine that Keegan expects this DfE guidance to be trailblazing in carving a new way forward to reconcile trans rights and gender critical views.

SunnyEgg · 23/06/2023 21:09

How does it work with the Badenoch letter

As you will be aware, the UK courts have ruled that gender critical beliefs – the belief that sex is biological and immutable, that people cannot change their sex and that sex is distinct from gender-identity – are classed as a philosophical belief worthy of respect in a democratic society and are therefore a protected characteristic under section 10 of the Equality Act 2010.

Can my belief be protected?

ResisterRex · 23/06/2023 21:17

SunnyEgg · 23/06/2023 21:09

How does it work with the Badenoch letter

As you will be aware, the UK courts have ruled that gender critical beliefs – the belief that sex is biological and immutable, that people cannot change their sex and that sex is distinct from gender-identity – are classed as a philosophical belief worthy of respect in a democratic society and are therefore a protected characteristic under section 10 of the Equality Act 2010.

Can my belief be protected?

Might be part of why Kemi sent that letter? Doesn't seem like her and Keegan are on the same page. She's asked for a snap inspection, Keegan's sent someone from the captured DfE in for...

"A source close to Mrs Keegan said: “Teachers should not be teaching contested ideology as fact. They must have due regard to safeguarding if a pupil identifies as an animal.”

It is understood that she has ordered the Department for Education’s regional director for the South East to visit Rye College and investigate whether pupils’ safety has been put at risk."

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/20/rye-college-children-neo-pronouns-cats-moons-rishi-sunak/

It's framed as specifically about whether or not kids ID'd as cats. Kemi's letter, OTOH:

"In my capacity as Minister for Women and Equalities I would like to request that Ofsted carry out a snap inspection of Rye College, in East Sussex. This is following the widely circulated recording of a teacher acting inappropriately regarding her pupils’ beliefs about sex, gender and a fellow pupil who claimed to identify as a cat, which in my view raises issues about safeguarding at the school.

As you will be aware, the UK courts have ruled that gender critical beliefs – the belief that sex is biological and immutable, that people cannot change their sex and that sex is distinct from gender-identity – are classed as a philosophical belief worthy of respect in a democratic society and are therefore a protected characteristic under section 10 of the Equality Act 2010. Through her behaviour, including her assertion that the pupils’ beliefs were ‘despicable’, my view is that the teacher was not acting in a way consistent with the Equality Act’s requirements upon schools, nor in accordance with Ofsted’s Education Inspection Framework’s requirements to promote respect for the different protected characteristics as defined in law.

In addition, by apparently teaching contested political beliefs as fact – including that there are ‘lots of genders’ or that ‘gender is not linked to the parts that you were born with’ – beliefs which are both politically controversial and have no scientific basis – it appears to me that the teacher was in breach of the political impartiality requirements set out in Articles 406 and 407 of the Education Act 1996..."

It's about specific equality law protections. Kemi is acting in her remit only but also she's arguably going to make sure she's done her best to stop more "it never happened" getting in the way of alleged equality breaches. I think?

OP posts:
AmbleInAnnBoleyn · 23/06/2023 21:49

What a bloody mess.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/06/2023 22:10

ResisterRex · 23/06/2023 21:17

Might be part of why Kemi sent that letter? Doesn't seem like her and Keegan are on the same page. She's asked for a snap inspection, Keegan's sent someone from the captured DfE in for...

"A source close to Mrs Keegan said: “Teachers should not be teaching contested ideology as fact. They must have due regard to safeguarding if a pupil identifies as an animal.”

It is understood that she has ordered the Department for Education’s regional director for the South East to visit Rye College and investigate whether pupils’ safety has been put at risk."

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/20/rye-college-children-neo-pronouns-cats-moons-rishi-sunak/

It's framed as specifically about whether or not kids ID'd as cats. Kemi's letter, OTOH:

"In my capacity as Minister for Women and Equalities I would like to request that Ofsted carry out a snap inspection of Rye College, in East Sussex. This is following the widely circulated recording of a teacher acting inappropriately regarding her pupils’ beliefs about sex, gender and a fellow pupil who claimed to identify as a cat, which in my view raises issues about safeguarding at the school.

As you will be aware, the UK courts have ruled that gender critical beliefs – the belief that sex is biological and immutable, that people cannot change their sex and that sex is distinct from gender-identity – are classed as a philosophical belief worthy of respect in a democratic society and are therefore a protected characteristic under section 10 of the Equality Act 2010. Through her behaviour, including her assertion that the pupils’ beliefs were ‘despicable’, my view is that the teacher was not acting in a way consistent with the Equality Act’s requirements upon schools, nor in accordance with Ofsted’s Education Inspection Framework’s requirements to promote respect for the different protected characteristics as defined in law.

In addition, by apparently teaching contested political beliefs as fact – including that there are ‘lots of genders’ or that ‘gender is not linked to the parts that you were born with’ – beliefs which are both politically controversial and have no scientific basis – it appears to me that the teacher was in breach of the political impartiality requirements set out in Articles 406 and 407 of the Education Act 1996..."

It's about specific equality law protections. Kemi is acting in her remit only but also she's arguably going to make sure she's done her best to stop more "it never happened" getting in the way of alleged equality breaches. I think?

Kemi's picked up the issue of the requirement for schools to be politically impartial - which any school working with any of the queer theory activist groups or adopting their biased guidance are clearly not doing.

I think her demand for Ofsted to be involved is designed to blow all this apart. Osfted were politically captured by Stonewall (along with the DfE) and asking them to go in and look at precisely the kind of biased indoctrination of children they've been promoting, puts them on the spot. It's a genius move as they've been insisting that schools teach the undefinable "gender identity" and this will force them to confront the monster they've created.

ResisterRex · 23/06/2023 22:23

I agree MrsOvertonsWindow.

Just seen: twitter.com/kemibadenoch/status/1672336213489885184?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

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