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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Glinner calling women "handmaidens"

268 replies

ftmquestions · 21/06/2023 22:34

Respect to glinner for speaking up but does anyone else consider his use of the term "handmaiden" grating? I don't like men calling women sexist names because they don't agree with him. Not one to criticise usually, cba with purity politics etc - and he can say what he likes - but I just wondered if I was alone in this making me bristle slightly

OP posts:
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BaronMunchausen · 22/06/2023 21:08

ftmquestions · 22/06/2023 20:28

Well maybe I do just dislike him then because it also annoys me that he's on mumsnet - a forum for mums!!!

Mumsnet is "by parents for parents". Check the FAQS for further information.

TeiTetua · 22/06/2023 21:10

I do like and admire Graham Linehan, but that doesn't stop me saying "In this case, he's made a mistake". I think it's better to avoid terms like "handmaiden" but that's especially true when it's men doing it. A man who claims to support women shouldn't be putting down any group of women, even if he finds them frustrating. He doesn't have to hide his thoughts about whether they're supporting policies that are bad for women, but he should make it clear that he accepts that they've got free will and their own opinions, and not imply that they're acting under duress or that they're incapable of thinking rationally.

Andrea Dworkin must have dealt with this stuff in "Right wing Women", but I haven't read it.

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/06/2023 21:46

ftmquestions · 22/06/2023 21:01

"Frankly you should be ashamed of yourself" Christ, come on.

The whole point of sex based slurs is to shame women. I don't understand the feminist motivation behind such slurs.

I like Glinner. I knew and worked with him once upon a time and I'm sad at what this fight has cost him. Sex based insults aren't the way to go though.

Grimbelina · 22/06/2023 21:48

... but Glinner isn't just supporting women, he is also flagging up safeguarding and the dangers of trans ideology to children. Therefore, why shouldn't he call out the women who are party to the abuse of children (puberty blockers, sterilisation, top surgery etc.)?

JanesLittleGirl · 22/06/2023 22:02

If you are a member of the Word Police, you will need to show me your warrant card and explain which Act of Parliament I have broken before I stop saying whatever I feel like saying. I use words that others don't like. They use words that I don't like. Life is funny like that. Fucking get over it.

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/06/2023 22:39

Grimbelina · 22/06/2023 21:48

... but Glinner isn't just supporting women, he is also flagging up safeguarding and the dangers of trans ideology to children. Therefore, why shouldn't he call out the women who are party to the abuse of children (puberty blockers, sterilisation, top surgery etc.)?

Just because a man campaigns for women and children's safety it doesn't mean that we must stay silent when he uses sex based slurs.

This is the first time I have seen a man use "handmaiden". I assume he was angry and doesn't know its history.

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/06/2023 22:40

JanesLittleGirl · 22/06/2023 22:02

If you are a member of the Word Police, you will need to show me your warrant card and explain which Act of Parliament I have broken before I stop saying whatever I feel like saying. I use words that others don't like. They use words that I don't like. Life is funny like that. Fucking get over it.

Do you feel the same about TERF?

Hairday · 22/06/2023 22:40

JanesLittleGirl · 22/06/2023 22:02

If you are a member of the Word Police, you will need to show me your warrant card and explain which Act of Parliament I have broken before I stop saying whatever I feel like saying. I use words that others don't like. They use words that I don't like. Life is funny like that. Fucking get over it.

Of course, say what you like. It's not feminism, though, if you're using gendered slurs to attack other women, especially to imply that they can't think for themselves. You don't have to be feminist, though. However, to not be feminist in a patriarchy means, ironically, that you are supporting the patriarchy.

QueenHippolyta · 22/06/2023 22:47

Oh for fuck's sake give it a rest. I'm a Lesbian and freely use the term 'Vichy Gay' for TRAs.
And women who support the sterilization of children are Handmaidens.
But they can wake up and leave...

IneedanewTV · 22/06/2023 22:48

A lot of Glinners work highlights safeguarding failings. I don’t care how he says it. As long as he highlights the issues and people are starting to wake up to this shit.

ftmquestions · 22/06/2023 22:52

Ok sorry. I thought mumsnet was genuinely just for mums. I have lurked on and off for a while due to my interest in gender ideology (since 2018) but never really joined as I wasn't then a mum

OP posts:
TooBigForMyBoots · 22/06/2023 22:57

FWR was probably the first not just for mums bit of Mnet.Grin

JanesLittleGirl · 22/06/2023 23:12

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/06/2023 22:40

Do you feel the same about TERF?

Call me a TERF. Water, back, duck. I ain't gonna die.

JanesLittleGirl · 22/06/2023 23:16

Hairday · 22/06/2023 22:40

Of course, say what you like. It's not feminism, though, if you're using gendered slurs to attack other women, especially to imply that they can't think for themselves. You don't have to be feminist, though. However, to not be feminist in a patriarchy means, ironically, that you are supporting the patriarchy.

You know what. If giving a fuck about the use of words defines my relationship with the patriarchy then we've all lost the plot.

JanesLittleGirl · 22/06/2023 23:20

To be clear, the meaning of the word 'woman' and the meaning of the word 'man' are very important to me. Handmaiden, Vichy, TERF, not so much.

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/06/2023 23:21

Giving a fuck about the use of words is integral in protecting women's rights.Hmm

lechiffre55 · 22/06/2023 23:36

Remind me again who is is that gets to decide what is feminism and what it isn't?

LastTrainEast · 22/06/2023 23:41

Handmaiden is surely a slightly gentler way of saying Collaborator. Which would be accurate. It's not just an insult as if you called someone a w*nker, but a description.

DemiColon · 22/06/2023 23:53

It's vanishingly rare that women who support any of the things that get them called "handmaidens" say they are doing so in order to support or pander to men specifically. Or even that they are somehow trying to undermine women's rights.

There is a difference between saying, "I think your views on X are undermining women's rights" and "you are trying to screw women over."

Most women who support gender ideology do so because they think it's right. They don't think they are doing anything against women.

There are cases occasionally when a particular individual is clearly doing something with really compromised motives, and it may be appropriate to point that out. But by calling women handmaidens it's essentially saying they are being disingenuous about their motives. And that's a manipulative kind of argument we see here all the time.

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/06/2023 23:59

JanesLittleGirl · 22/06/2023 23:12

Call me a TERF. Water, back, duck. I ain't gonna die.

TERF is recognised as sex based hate speech. You may be OK with it. Many of us are not and will not be silenced in our challenge of it. Ditto "Handmaiden".

Collaborator is not sex based. Do we need a special word for women who collaborate? Why?

FriendlyNeighbourhoodTrans · 23/06/2023 00:45

@Signalbox here are a couple of sources for the details of the ban - it wasn't covered as much as his first couple of bans:
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/16/anti-trans-graham-linehan-suspended-twitter-again/
https://www.cityam.com/graham-linehan-aka-glinner-banned-from-twitter-again/

The short version is that they were counter-protesters who had turned up to oppose a Posie Parker rally (who for further context is a terf who is known for praising and sharing her platform with openly far-right groups).

@ftmquestions "...it seems that his respect for women is conditional on whether they agree with him or not" is indeed an apt summary of his approach. His attitude seems to be that if you're not with him then you're against him, and if you're against him he seems all too happy to presume your motives and your role in the vast and highly-coordinated conspiracy which he believes he is fighting against. @DemiColon that everyone who disagrees with him is "disingenuous about their motives", that's a good way of putting it.

Anti-trans mouthpiece Graham Linehan suspended from Twitter … again

Anti-trans activist and TV comedy writer Graham Linehan’s Twitter account has been suspended for the second time.

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/16/anti-trans-graham-linehan-suspended-twitter-again

CliantheLang · 23/06/2023 00:53

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/06/2023 22:40

Do you feel the same about TERF?

LGBT

  • Lesbian
  • Gay
  • Bisexual
  • Terf
Looks good to me.
Slothtoes · 23/06/2023 00:54

I don’t think GC people have to behave perfectly because other people don’t behave decently. Behaving decently is enough. And ‘handmaiden’ falls easily on the right side of that decency line, for me.

We’re not right and on the ethical side of this argument only because of how we have made the points. The rightness of the position will always remain whether we all use shitty terrible language or all use perfectly polite language, or a mix.

Do I want to look back on all this and think I didn’t resort to verbal shittiness (which would be using a lot worse language than ‘handmaiden’) yes ideally. but as a human and emotional being I can imagine that is a very high bar to aim for 100% of the time on a very emotive topic. And that’s OK.

DemiColon · 23/06/2023 01:45

FriendlyNeighbourhoodTrans · 23/06/2023 00:45

@Signalbox here are a couple of sources for the details of the ban - it wasn't covered as much as his first couple of bans:
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/04/16/anti-trans-graham-linehan-suspended-twitter-again/
https://www.cityam.com/graham-linehan-aka-glinner-banned-from-twitter-again/

The short version is that they were counter-protesters who had turned up to oppose a Posie Parker rally (who for further context is a terf who is known for praising and sharing her platform with openly far-right groups).

@ftmquestions "...it seems that his respect for women is conditional on whether they agree with him or not" is indeed an apt summary of his approach. His attitude seems to be that if you're not with him then you're against him, and if you're against him he seems all too happy to presume your motives and your role in the vast and highly-coordinated conspiracy which he believes he is fighting against. @DemiColon that everyone who disagrees with him is "disingenuous about their motives", that's a good way of putting it.

I wasn't particularly saying that about Glinner, I don't think that's actually what he thinks, as it happens.

I do think that it tends to be the implication when it's used in feminist discussions about other women.

Either way, I don't think it's useful.

BellaAmorosa · 23/06/2023 02:09

I'm not sure it's entirely true to say that TRA women or trans allies are not consciously working against the interests of women. I think many of them are. Some women who are fully onboard as trans allies think that feminism is a second- or third-order issue, that harm coming to some women is an acceptable sacrifice for a higher cause whether that is socialism, diversity, equity, trans rights, etc. The cause, whatever it is, is more important than women's rights.

Or they think that women's rights are sorted and the males claiming to be women are more vulnerable. That we are being selfish not to make room for the men who really want in. That the special males need our rights, services and spaces more than we do, in effect.

An example of this was a woman on twitter who aggressively insisted that in a time of hormone scarcity, men claiming to be women should take priority over menopausal women for HRT supplies because they needed it and we didn't. I don't have the link, unfortunately. This is our old friend #BeKind, of course, and this attitude is often combined with a naive belief in the sweetnaturedness and helplessness of all males who claim to be women. The kitten with one eye, or the dog at the kennels that nobody wants to adopt.

I think that's what they mean when they say that treating males claiming to be women as women takes nothing away from us as women - they mean that it takes nothing we can't afford to give.

Anyway, basically what I'm trying to say is that I don't think the focus of the "handmaidens" is women.