Glinner calling women "handmaidens"

[ftmquestions]

Respect to glinner for speaking up but does anyone else consider his use of the term "handmaiden" grating? I don't like men calling women sexist names because they don't agree with him. Not one to criticise usually, cba with purity politics etc - and he can say what he likes - but I just wondered if I was alone in this making me bristle slightly

I don't know, Kathleen stock and Helen Joyce and JKR do pretty well.

Also wouldn't say I'm in the "be kind" brigade. I think KJK is a legend and she's not exactly "kind". But yeah, find glinner frustrating

Are you fricking serious? Talk about DARVO.

further to “friendly trans”, Glinner certainly did not call for death threats. This is a (slanderous) lie. You’re really not that friendly if you’re spreading lies.

I don’t recognise any of this! It’s as if you are living in a parallel universe!

Thank you.

Or are living in a parallel universe where humans can change sex...

Bloody excellent post.
Brava.

THAT is the image I will now have in my head, everytime I see a woman who really should know better supporting this nonsense.

It is utterly perfect.

But the term doesn't just mean someone you disagree with?

Yes.

For me the bigger picture is that one of the things that has really made it difficult for women to be heard on this issue, or any critics of gender ideology, is the tendency to demonize people who have a different viewpoint as bigoted or stupid, and to rely on tribal affinities rather than looking at issues.

All of that has been as effective as the direct "No Debate" stuff, probably more effective. It's allowed completely idiotic mantras to be widely accepted omong the progressive left, because no one wants to look like a baddie. This atmosphere has been around long enough that it's affected the ability of many people to engage critically at all with subjects where there is supposedly a "right" side. Stupid shit like "Love is Love" get a pass because they are used to just accepting what seems nice and supportive of the cause - looking at the deeper implications is no longer a thing.

The only way to get out of that mess is to stop those kinds of behaviours, that approach to thinking. Get rid of those lazy intellectual habits.

There are a few people who are critics of gender ideology who previously seem to have been part of that way of thinking. JKR was one to some extent, Glinner another. I think for many people, the experience of seeing what happened has actually shocked them out of that way of thinking and talking, into a more serious engagement with ideas in general. That seems to me to be the case with JKR. Glinner, maybe somewhat, but he still seems more inclined to continue to focus on the player rather than the ball.

To me that's a big mistake because it ultimately supports the environment that allowed this shitfest to happen.

@DemiColon "But the term doesn't just mean someone you disagree with?"

I know. I was assuming that everyone knows what it means-I was stating my general position!
But in case anyone doesn't know-a handmaiden is a woman who, for whatever reason, willingly colludes in her own oppression and in the opression of other women. Which to me is despicable behaviour and needs to be called out. In my experience, the women who object to the term are frequently (not always) women whose own behaviour wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.

I just think it shows the mental age up of the person using the insults. Gender specific names such as Handmaiden, TERF, Karen - whichever side of the fence you sit, are childish and unproductive. Just accept that some people have different opinions to you and seek to put your side across by grown up debate; don't stoop to silly name-calling and insults, which straight away tells the receiver you have no intelligent argument, therefore your opinion does not hold any weight.

Gosh, I wondered what Glinner had done to kick the hornets nest?

Would anyone be surprised to hear that he uploaded a hilarious and triumphant episode of the mess yesterday? I heartily recommend going to watch it, and draw your own conclusions.

n

Gosh, I wondered what Glinner had done to kick the hornets nest?

Other than 'debate' TRAs @FriendlyNeighbourhoodTrans?

‘Handmaid’ must have been in use in the English language before it was used to translate a Greek word or words. And it may have had more than one meaning already. But that may be the earliest recorded use of it. What it means now depends on the contexts in which it has been used.

But in case anyone doesn't know-a handmaiden is a woman who, for whatever reason, willingly colludes in her own oppression and in the oppression of other women.

Before the trans shitshow this argument was used against married women, SAHMs, women who shave/wear make-up, religious women etc. It is so subjective that most women fall under its definition.

I don't like it.

The only way to get out of that mess is to stop those kinds of behaviours, that approach to thinking. Get rid of those lazy intellectual habits.
@DemiColon thank you for your thoughtful post. It helped me clarify a lot of half-arsed thoughts about this issue.

You're talking about "Handmaiden of the Patriarchy", @TooBigForMyBoots, right?

Yes, it applies to most of us because we all live in the oppressor's realm and most of us compromise with its rules to some extent. Some feminists did scatter the term around liberally - it's been sneered at me more than once.

BUT it's important to note that those women never compromised in their own lives, a choice that drew far more damaging fire than being called a "handmaiden" now and again. I remain grateful for their commitment, and understand their feelings of betrayal.

In public debate, "handmaiden" was reserved for women who campaigned against women's liberation. That's pretty much how it's being used in the gender war.

No issue with it whatsoever.

It's apt for the many, many posters professing to be women who turn up persistently on horrific threads, by women bravely sharing their stories about sexual, coercive or violent abuse, to tell them they are man haters who should consider the feelings of the men. To hell with their pain, trauma or understandable desire for self-preservation. Just fuck off.

'Bitch' or 'cunt' are misogynistic names that I'd never call another woman, ever.
'Handmaiden' in this context - or any where women willingly and happily throw other women to the dogs - absolutely fair play. You want to call women who object to this shit misogynistic, well if the cap fits ...

I was called ' Nazi ' ' C*' ' scum' on my way into a peaceful legal meeting for women that supported men out of womens sports and prisons. It was even more horrible to see young women turning on me and others, spitting with rage
'Handmaidens' is polite... these women are aggressively betraying and intimidating other women.

Go Glinner!

Female slaves who may be used sexually are attested and formalised from 2,000 BC at the latest. Attwood didn't make this up: https://vardags.com/family-law/assyrian-tablet-reveals-ancient-marriage-contract-with-surrogacy-clause

There's also evidence from (I think) even earlier, of male rulers taking their personal female slaves (handmaids) to the grave with them - sometimes by the dozen. At least one favoured handmaid, having been spared for some reason, ran alongside the funeral procession begging to be killed and buried with her master. She was, of course, granted her wish and subsequently revered.

The master's preferred female slave has been in a privileged position, albeit precarious, right up until recent colonial times. She has frequently guarded her status against competitors, including having them and their children killed - plenty of that in Greek & Roman history.

The intended meaning of "handmaiden" is absolutely clear. I'm posting this potted history on the offchance that anyone really didn't know.

What do mean in public debate? Surely most debates outside of academia are public.

As compared to private 🙄

In the public debate on Mnet, Twitter etc, Handmaiden has been used in all the ways I mentioned. It hasn't been reserved for women who campaign against women's liberation.

Your post is the first time I have heard that and I'm a middle aged feminist who's been about a bit.

I was talking about Handmaiden of the Patriarchy @TooBigForMyBoots.

In public debate, "handmaiden" was reserved for women who campaigned against women's liberation. That's pretty much how it's being used in the gender war.

I didn't expect to have to explain that I meant:

In public, Handmaiden was reserved for anti-liberation women. It wasn't used indiscriminately about women performing femininity in their personal lives, as that would've included nearly all the female audience. In closed feminist groups and other informal discussions, it was used that way sometimes.

Now we see "handmaiden" being applied to women who support male usurpers of women's rights & female identity - so are anti-women's liberation, too. The same epithet is being applied to the same class of behaviour.

Clearly, more discussions these days are public. I'd dispute that all discussions are public, though, and don't see what point you were trying to make with that.

Finally, the fact that your generation's feminists piggy-backed on the work of my generation doesn't invalidate either effort.