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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

School guidelines on gender identities/trans out this week

674 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 19/06/2023 10:36

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12208907/PM-says-children-not-allowed-switch-identities-schools-without-telling-parents.html

These are the only two articles I could find so far.

'Schools will be forced to tell parents if students are questioning their gender under new Government guidance to be published this week, according to a report. '

Schools to be banned from letting kids change gender if parents say no

SCHOOLS will be banned from letting kids change their gender if their parents say no, The Sun can reveal. And children who want to be called by another pronoun — he, she, they — will not be able to…

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak

OP posts:
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26
Helleofabore · 20/06/2023 21:40

And just how respectful is it that an individual demands that what are effectively lies are told as the expected sign of ‘respect’.

Who believes this is respect?

WarriorN · 20/06/2023 21:44

@MalagaNights it's chilling to see which teachers REALLY don't get it and conflate being gay with sexist cosmetic medicalisation on #edutwitter

ValancyRedfern · 20/06/2023 22:03

We had an assembly at school today telling kids they need to use preferred pronouns. I will not be complicit in teaching children they must lie or face punishment. Off to cause more problems for my slt tomorrow!

Helleofabore · 20/06/2023 22:03

Stella is absolutely right. This generation of children are living experiments for gender theorists. There is no real evidence that pronouns and social transitioning are ‘harmless’ or ‘beneficial’. It is all theory. And our children are the respondents in a society wide experiment.

Teacher calls 13-year-old girl "despicable for not accepting a classmate identified as a cat

'This mess has frankly been shaped by activists... Schools are making fools of themselves by allowing themselves to be swayed.' Stella O'Malley reacts to a s...

https://youtu.be/yrGoopBhPYg

MalagaNights · 20/06/2023 22:24

WarriorN · 20/06/2023 21:44

@MalagaNights it's chilling to see which teachers REALLY don't get it and conflate being gay with sexist cosmetic medicalisation on #edutwitter

I have a question/ clarification about this informing parents issue:

Would a teacher be obliged to tell a parent if a child mentions they are trans but there is no distress or intention to transition in school?

Teachers don't relay every conversation or thought a child has to parents.

Would they only be obliged to inform parents if a child was wanting to social transition and if they had any concerns about distress or well being?

I think people are interpreting this as children can never talk to teachers without everything being relayed. Like some constant monitoring.

But it's not it's about how you deal with concerns about a child and secrets relating to the child's well being not being secret from parents.

I think safeguarding has in many professionals minds become a belief that professionals care more about your child & know better than you and their role is to monitor that you parent correctly as they see it.

I've encountered this belief hiding within safeguarding a lot.

Instead of: parents are the primary safeguarders of their children until you think they're not doing this, then you share information with parents and everyone and refer.

ButterflyHatched · 20/06/2023 23:55

JanesLittleGirl · 20/06/2023 20:39

@ButterflyHatched

'I've actively changed how I dress over the course of the last couple of years toward a more femme style if I know I'll be using facilities in places likely to skew hostile toward trans people '

Well whoopy-fucking-do! Well done you. All that consideration to protect yourself against the nasty trans-hostile people. Did you ever think show any consideration to the women who felt embarrassment, discomfort or full-on fear when you bravely walked into their facilities?

Fuck you and fuck the horse you rode into town on.

That's a common struggle for many trans women and I imagine it's an utterly rotten one to have to face every day. It doesn't apply to all trans women, though - especially the ones who were lucky enough to have supportive parents and early access to treatment. We're invisible. That's...well that's half the point - it's why preventing us from having access to blockers in our teens is so cruel. It means we have no hope of escape.

When the bigots don't even know you're there, they can only indirectly hurt you. They start jumping at shadows. Hence all the frankly bizarre 'transvestigation' conspiracy creepiness out there. It seems to drive people absolutely up the wall to imagine us just...wandering around, minding our own business, living our lives. The idea that it is not, in fact, possible to 'always tell' seems like a personal affront, somehow.

The fact that I've started actively changing how I dress toward more 'traditionally femme' clothing in unsafe places is wholly due to the fact that we've seen a huge uptick in people challenging any woman who dares to defy gender norms, and I don't particularly fancy having to deal with the resulting psychic damage if someone accidentally manages to get a hit.

What a weird situation, to find yourself actively encouraged toward reinforcing stereotypical gender roles due to the upsurge in the Gender Critical movement making it dangerous to stand out or appear in any way ambiguous. Still, that's where we are now. Whatever the initial intention, the Gender Police seem to have taken over.

Hopefully the moral panic contingent gets bored and moves onto something else within the next few years before they can do too much more damage to the futures of trans kids. Fingers crossed that when the election is over, we'll get a bit of a break. It's been an exhausting few years.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 21/06/2023 00:01

Wow such gaslighting, such hard work and manipulative use of language, all to avoid acknowledging the very simple fact that female people exist and are more than just what a male person - by which, for the avoidance of doubt, I mean a person born physically male regardless of how they may identify mentally - the very simple fact that female people exist in their own right and are not simply just whatever a male person assumes them to be when he observes them from the outside.

Female people exist in our own right. It's not moral panic to object to a movement that seeks to deny that.

SunnyEgg · 21/06/2023 00:03

FlirtsWithRhinos · 21/06/2023 00:01

Wow such gaslighting, such hard work and manipulative use of language, all to avoid acknowledging the very simple fact that female people exist and are more than just what a male person - by which, for the avoidance of doubt, I mean a person born physically male regardless of how they may identify mentally - the very simple fact that female people exist in their own right and are not simply just whatever a male person assumes them to be when he observes them from the outside.

Female people exist in our own right. It's not moral panic to object to a movement that seeks to deny that.

It was quite something to read.

ButterflyHatched · 21/06/2023 00:47

FlirtsWithRhinos · 21/06/2023 00:01

Wow such gaslighting, such hard work and manipulative use of language, all to avoid acknowledging the very simple fact that female people exist and are more than just what a male person - by which, for the avoidance of doubt, I mean a person born physically male regardless of how they may identify mentally - the very simple fact that female people exist in their own right and are not simply just whatever a male person assumes them to be when he observes them from the outside.

Female people exist in our own right. It's not moral panic to object to a movement that seeks to deny that.

I'd advise taking a look at the various groups and characters that have co-opted the label of Gender Critical ideology over the years. I'm afraid it's really not about a small cadre of tenacious Gender War veterans and outspoken academics speaking their own truth to power anymore. It's become mainstream, front page tabloid outrage-bait - the Daily Mail, the Telegraph and the Times run multiple articles daily. The Guardian even gets in on it frequently. The first billionaire author is a proud, outspoken figurehead. It's being absolutely hammered as one of the primary agendas of the Tory party as they scrabble to find a way to escape their impending election disaster. Even Starmer has been forced to flip his position.

It's a massive, concerted, worldwide reactionary surge, and it has stolen the name 'Gender Critical' from you for its own purposes. I'm sorry. It's not about you anymore.

Tropicaldi · 21/06/2023 00:54

I am delighted it has become mainstream now to trust one’s own senses and instincts and to tell the truth. We’ve had a couple of decades of people being shamed for being normal - for thinking, and saying normal things. I think that was called ‘gender critical’ for a while.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 21/06/2023 01:11

And again with the gaslighting.

I'm not naive. I see the reactionary element (of whom JKR is not one) and I entirely understand that while we may stand against the same thing, what they stand for is very different to me and I will not support them in it.

However neither will I be shamed and coerced into silently accepting the redefinition - or rather the undefinition - of female people as a valid and meaningful political ad social group, with our own needs and our own voices separate to male.

It's the thing the genderists fail to understand: that moving words around might make it hard to name reality but it doesn't change reality. And that means reality is always there beneath the words, and it will be refound and rerecognised again and again and again because regardless of its name or lack of name, it affects our lives and we know that.

Appropriating the word "Woman" and applying it to male people didn't change the reality of female existence one tiny jot, and appropriating the term "Gender Critical" and applying it to reactionary believers in traditional gender roles doesn't take away the reality that what is being done to female people in the name of "trans rights" is repressive, unfair and wrong, and that we will always, always find ways to name that reality and call it out.

ButterflyHatched · 21/06/2023 01:43

Tropicaldi · 21/06/2023 00:54

I am delighted it has become mainstream now to trust one’s own senses and instincts and to tell the truth. We’ve had a couple of decades of people being shamed for being normal - for thinking, and saying normal things. I think that was called ‘gender critical’ for a while.

Ahh there it is. Top-tier 'feminist' take right here. The state of the GC movement in 2023.

If you're an actual feminist and have been here for the long haul, then I'm really sorry that this kind of toss has co-opted your movement. I'm not really sure what can be done to salvage things at this point.

ButterflyHatched · 21/06/2023 02:17

FlirtsWithRhinos · 21/06/2023 01:11

And again with the gaslighting.

I'm not naive. I see the reactionary element (of whom JKR is not one) and I entirely understand that while we may stand against the same thing, what they stand for is very different to me and I will not support them in it.

However neither will I be shamed and coerced into silently accepting the redefinition - or rather the undefinition - of female people as a valid and meaningful political ad social group, with our own needs and our own voices separate to male.

It's the thing the genderists fail to understand: that moving words around might make it hard to name reality but it doesn't change reality. And that means reality is always there beneath the words, and it will be refound and rerecognised again and again and again because regardless of its name or lack of name, it affects our lives and we know that.

Appropriating the word "Woman" and applying it to male people didn't change the reality of female existence one tiny jot, and appropriating the term "Gender Critical" and applying it to reactionary believers in traditional gender roles doesn't take away the reality that what is being done to female people in the name of "trans rights" is repressive, unfair and wrong, and that we will always, always find ways to name that reality and call it out.

Glad you can see what's happening and acknowledge it - a couple of years ago when I mentioned it here there was a lot of outright head-in-the-sand denial. It would be interesting to see how many of those who scolded me for hyperbole back then feel the same way now, given how the political landscape has steadily changed.

It's probably way too late to salvage things now, but I wish you luck - I would infinitely prefer to go back to disagreeing with fellow feminists over points of interpretation and definition while overall pointing in the same direction. What's happened here is huge, and frightening, and I'm really afraid of who it is going to turn on next once it has finished wringing every last drop of legitimacy out of claiming to have anything to do with feminism.

OldCrone · 21/06/2023 04:17

That's a common struggle for many trans women and I imagine it's an utterly rotten one to have to face every day. It doesn't apply to all trans women, though - especially the ones who were lucky enough to have supportive parents and early access to treatment. We're invisible. That's...well that's half the point - it's why preventing us from having access to blockers in our teens is so cruel. It means we have no hope of escape.

It's 'so cruel' to want to prevent children from bring sterilised and having their sexual function removed or severely impaired before they are old enough to understand what they are giving up? Really? Just so that a male can superficially impersonate a woman more convincingly as an adult?

What is cruel is telling children that they can change sex if they want to. And why would they want to? A dislike of the stereotypes which are imposed on them because of their sex? Stereotypes shouldn't matter. Children should be taught they don't have to comply with them. Or perhaps because their parents are homophobic, and concerned that their child might grow up to be gay. Or perhaps that child is repulsed by their own sexual organs. This could be a sign of abuse, and this is what needs investigating - it shouldn't mean a trip to the gender clinic.

Even some vocal proponents of transitioning children are now starting to sound more cautious (Marci Bowers and Erica Anderson for example).

Nobody is born in the wrong body. Have you really swallowed that myth? Although if you were really put through this appalling process yourself as a child, I can understand that you would want to keep telling yourself that it's all for the best. If so, I'm sorry that your parents and doctors didn't protect you and tell you that it's fine to be a feminine boy.

Backstreets · 21/06/2023 05:46

Now that the first generation of trans kids are growing up, all I can say is biology wins.
Wishing a life of dilation, loss of sexual function, infertility, osteoporosis, surgical revisions and god knows what else on young people… and we’re the baddies. Right.

Helleofabore · 21/06/2023 06:22

Biology always wins. For instance, Butterfly refuses to acknowledge the very nature of the biological discrimination of the treatment that butterfly supports. That the negative side effects that are life limiting and life shortening for female bodies for the very treatments that butterfly advocates for are much greater than for male bodies. It is another way that male transitioners can never be what they want us to agree that they are.

Either way, some male transitioners push the agenda for children to transition, all children, to support their own needs, to retrospectively affirm their own lives. Many of the male transitioners advocating for this have had sexual relationships, some have had children. ALL male transitioners have not had the lifetime of negative sexist discrimination that all female people are subjected to at various levels around the world. All the negative sexist discrimination all female people are still subjected to from birth. Although, they try to claim it but forced teaming.

I would also suggest age will also show just how biology wins too.

I welcome posters such butterfly because seeing posts such as their’s enlighten many readers who might be questioning what is actually happening. It is always a live demonstration of how male socialisation is never far from view. And always a live demonstration of how ‘respect’ in these cases only ever goes one way. And usually a live demonstration of the tactics deployed to convince people: the emotional manipulation, the sleight of hand language, and gaslighting.

It that ‘respect’ is never the direction towards meeting a solution that meets the needs of female people.

With each post it becomes clearer and clearer for those reading. And as I said before, once you see the pattern, you cannot miss it.

knittingaddict · 21/06/2023 06:27

ButterflyHatched · 21/06/2023 00:47

I'd advise taking a look at the various groups and characters that have co-opted the label of Gender Critical ideology over the years. I'm afraid it's really not about a small cadre of tenacious Gender War veterans and outspoken academics speaking their own truth to power anymore. It's become mainstream, front page tabloid outrage-bait - the Daily Mail, the Telegraph and the Times run multiple articles daily. The Guardian even gets in on it frequently. The first billionaire author is a proud, outspoken figurehead. It's being absolutely hammered as one of the primary agendas of the Tory party as they scrabble to find a way to escape their impending election disaster. Even Starmer has been forced to flip his position.

It's a massive, concerted, worldwide reactionary surge, and it has stolen the name 'Gender Critical' from you for its own purposes. I'm sorry. It's not about you anymore.

All excellent news. 😍

OldCrone · 21/06/2023 07:05

The fact that I've started actively changing how I dress toward more 'traditionally femme' clothing in unsafe places is wholly due to the fact that we've seen a huge uptick in people challenging any woman who dares to defy gender norms

If these challenges are really happening, and it's a big 'if', since this seems extremely unlikely to me - sex is normally clearly visible no matter how someone is dressed - it is due to the current increase in entitled males believing that they have the right to enter women's spaces and women feeling more threatened as a result.

The solution to this @ButterflyHatched is for males like you to use male spaces instead. If you feel women's spaces are so unsafe (and you don't belong there), why would you want to use them anyway?

You seem to be feigning concern here for gender nonconforming women. If you really cared about those women you'd help them by staying out of women's spaces. If we could rely on males to stay out then there wouldn't be any suspicion that a masculine looking woman was a man.

You do seem to be contradicting yourself though. In your previous paragraph to the one I've quoted you said "It doesn't apply to all trans women, though - especially the ones who were lucky enough to have supportive parents and early access to treatment. We're invisible." If you really believed this you wouldn't feel the need to wear "traditionally femme" clothing (whatever that is - twinset and pearls or something, perhaps?) Women are clearly women even when we're wearing t-shirt and jeans, with short hair and no makeup.

Helleofabore · 21/06/2023 07:12

ButterflyHatched · 21/06/2023 02:17

Glad you can see what's happening and acknowledge it - a couple of years ago when I mentioned it here there was a lot of outright head-in-the-sand denial. It would be interesting to see how many of those who scolded me for hyperbole back then feel the same way now, given how the political landscape has steadily changed.

It's probably way too late to salvage things now, but I wish you luck - I would infinitely prefer to go back to disagreeing with fellow feminists over points of interpretation and definition while overall pointing in the same direction. What's happened here is huge, and frightening, and I'm really afraid of who it is going to turn on next once it has finished wringing every last drop of legitimacy out of claiming to have anything to do with feminism.

This post needs addressing. Apologies for the length. And it is a repeat of what is posted often but it is for readers I post this for context. I suspect that feminists who regularly post on this board will have pointed out the dishonesty of what extremist trans activists have done by way of ‘guilt by association’ and ‘polarisation’. They have done it for emotionally manipulative reasons.

The timeline goes something like this.

The term gender critical was actually a shortening of ‘gender critical feminist’. Gender critical feminists are gender abolishners, they are women and girls, female people, who believe that the only thing that is common between all female people is their sexed body and the oppression that women and girls suffer from around the world. All the rest is personality, and the interactions of society that has shaped that individual.

There is no one way to be a girl or a woman, except for having a body that was formed around the production of large gametes regardless of whether that production will ever happen or not. If your body was formed around production of small gametes, you will be male for your entire life.

Then the term ‘gender critical feminist’ was expanded to fit other groups. The word ‘feminist‘ was dropped. This is significant.

Now, the belief that sex is immutable in human beings is a universally believed, indeed proven and well established fact. But now, activists have dishonestly taken a term and changed its meaning as an act of derogation, of denigration to silence feminists and anyone sharing the feminist viewpoint.

To be clear, that feminist viewpoint is woman and girl are not labels to be assumed through application of stereotypes, and they are not costumes to don by any male person. Instead those words have meanings that only apply to human females with those sexed bodies. And no female person needs to define themselves by stereotypes in looks or actions.

So, now extreme trans activists have stripped the original meaning of the term ‘gender critical feminist’ and are applying ‘gender critical’ to a huge group of people who all believe the universally believed and established fact that sex is immutable. But now they are applying it to people who believe in gender stereotypes and gendered roles.

It could be discussed also that extreme activists who want loosely similar (not the same) outcomes as feminists have also adopted the now chopped off label without understanding what it means. Their goals and motivations are NOT the same as feminists. They might ignorantly use the term ‘gender critical’ because they don’t understand that it meant ‘gender stereotype critical’.

Therefore, like the word ‘woman’, and ‘tolerant’, the term ‘gender critical’ has been used in a way by a group of people to mean the opposite of the original meaning and intended meaning of the word. That same group of people who have forcibly attempted to change the meaning of other words such as ‘woman’ and ‘tolerant’.

The forced teaming with the wider group is used to silence feminists because we are supposed to believe that neo-Nazis share the feminist goals. Therefore feminists = neo nazi. Leading to ‘feminists are Nazis’.

The term ‘gender critical’ is now meaningless. However, it is used in an attempt to shame and silence feminists. In exactly the way that butterfly has used it here.

Posters such as butterfly have attempted to use the ‘guilt by association’ and polarisation tactics for a very long time.

They do this by forced teaming. By pointing out that other groups who are extreme and who are hateful share the belief that sex is immutable. Therefore, surely if nazi’s believe it, it must be wrong to believe it. There is that polarisation aspect.

Of course, they neglect to also mention that the majority of the world also believes that sex is immutable. and that many people who are not feminists either also believe that gender stereotypes are to be rejected.

TLDR

When you want to silence women, just point out the Nazi groups agree with them.

That will shame them into silence.

Tropicaldi · 21/06/2023 07:18

ButterflyHatched · 21/06/2023 01:43

Ahh there it is. Top-tier 'feminist' take right here. The state of the GC movement in 2023.

If you're an actual feminist and have been here for the long haul, then I'm really sorry that this kind of toss has co-opted your movement. I'm not really sure what can be done to salvage things at this point.

The feminist movement was co-opted and subverted a while back by men who said they found it validating and enjoyable to be catcalled, be called “miss”, to wear itchy, painful and restrictive clothes, etc, whilst they made up words like ‘transmisogyny” and inserted themselves into feminist groups.

SunnyEgg · 21/06/2023 07:22

ButterflyHatched · 21/06/2023 01:43

Ahh there it is. Top-tier 'feminist' take right here. The state of the GC movement in 2023.

If you're an actual feminist and have been here for the long haul, then I'm really sorry that this kind of toss has co-opted your movement. I'm not really sure what can be done to salvage things at this point.

No need to be sorry about that. I’m glad it’s not just a tiny discussion on mn or elsewhere

Your posts do have something of your sex class about them though, a patriarchal privilege.

AlisonDonut · 21/06/2023 07:23

ButterflyHatched · 21/06/2023 01:43

Ahh there it is. Top-tier 'feminist' take right here. The state of the GC movement in 2023.

If you're an actual feminist and have been here for the long haul, then I'm really sorry that this kind of toss has co-opted your movement. I'm not really sure what can be done to salvage things at this point.

What sort of toss, schoolgirls standing up for themselves when a teacher tells them to respect the catgender person?

Note: schoolgirls can be feminists, males cannot.

oldwomanwhoruns · 21/06/2023 07:40

It's such a male thing, isn't it.
"I've paid for the surgeries/fishnets/whatever, so I now have a right to be in here".

It's just like BMW owners who think that they own the road.

PorcelinaV · 21/06/2023 07:41

It seems to drive people absolutely up the wall to imagine us just...wandering around, minding our own business, living our lives. The idea that it is not, in fact, possible to 'always tell' seems like a personal affront, somehow.

I don't think many people care if trans people are just "minding their own business". That's all fine. Whatever makes you happy.

But imagine a man trying to use the women's changing rooms. That isn't exactly "minding their own business". If you think you can pass then it suddenly becomes OK?

Helleofabore · 21/06/2023 07:42

ButterflyHatched · 21/06/2023 00:47

I'd advise taking a look at the various groups and characters that have co-opted the label of Gender Critical ideology over the years. I'm afraid it's really not about a small cadre of tenacious Gender War veterans and outspoken academics speaking their own truth to power anymore. It's become mainstream, front page tabloid outrage-bait - the Daily Mail, the Telegraph and the Times run multiple articles daily. The Guardian even gets in on it frequently. The first billionaire author is a proud, outspoken figurehead. It's being absolutely hammered as one of the primary agendas of the Tory party as they scrabble to find a way to escape their impending election disaster. Even Starmer has been forced to flip his position.

It's a massive, concerted, worldwide reactionary surge, and it has stolen the name 'Gender Critical' from you for its own purposes. I'm sorry. It's not about you anymore.

”It's a massive, concerted, worldwide reactionary surge, and it has stolen the name 'Gender Critical' from you for its own purposes.”

Any accusor of ‘guilt by association’ should start by looking at their own community and the various groups that are within that description.

I think it must take some huge compartmentalization to have posted this.

The extreme groups you talk about are not ‘aligned’ with feminists except in trans activists eyes. Yes they have surged. They are not ‘gender critical’ because many of them agree with gendered roles and stereotypes.

They have surged not because of feminists, they have surged because some of them had reached the point of understanding what was happening to their families. It directly impacted them. Others have their very own motivations, but gained momentum from the public discourse.

It is remarkable the misogyny in the statement “I'm sorry. It's not about you anymore.” And in the inherent blaming that feminists speaking out is at fault. Feminists shouldn’t have spoken out in public because now look who is ‘surging’ forward!!!

As I said in my last post, it is false to say those groups are ‘gender critical’ because they are not. That is the ignorance of extreme trans activism showing.

However this first paragraph is hilarious!

”I'm afraid it's really not about a small cadre of tenacious Gender War veterans and outspoken academics speaking their own truth to power anymore. It's become mainstream, front page tabloid outrage-bait - the Daily Mail, the Telegraph and the Times run multiple articles daily. The Guardian even gets in on it frequently. The first billionaire author is a proud, outspoken figurehead. It's being absolutely hammered as one of the primary agendas of the Tory party as they scrabble to find a way to escape their impending election disaster. Even Starmer has been forced to flip his position.”

What is wrong with the discussion being picked up by mainstream media? After all, women were being told that ‘any’ debate was transphobic and hateful only a few years ago.

Can you tell us where you disagree with Joanne Rowling specifically?

And why it should give us pause that the government in power is about to put out more educational guidance after finally realising it needed to seek advice from different groups on how to safeguard children instead on groups nobly representing trans people’s supposed interest?

Why should it give us pause that the government in power can recognize there are currently conflicts in laws and policy that are actively causing female people harm?

That first paragraph shows just how entrenched your own prejudices are. That paragraph is pure prejudice without any critical thinking on every point.