School guidelines on gender identities/trans out this week

[ArabeIIaScott]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12208907/PM-says-children-not-allowed-switch-identities-schools-without-telling-parents.html

These are the only two articles I could find so far.

'Schools will be forced to tell parents if students are questioning their gender under new Government guidance to be published this week, according to a report. '

Can this sound any more like a MRA line?

”If you're an actual feminist and have been here for the long haul, then I'm really sorry that this kind of toss has co-opted your movement. I'm not really sure what can be done to salvage things at this point.”

Considering it came so closely with :

”I would infinitely prefer to go back to disagreeing with fellow feminists over points of interpretation and definition while overall pointing in the same direction.”

Errr… you ain’t no feminist mate. You recognised it in the first paragraph I quoted.

From @OldCrone

You seem to be feigning concern here for gender nonconforming women. If you really cared about those women you'd help them by staying out of women's spaces. If we could rely on males to stay out then there wouldn't be any suspicion that a masculine looking woman was a man.

This.

For al the faux concern and forced teaming, the PP's position ultimately boils down to

"it's so very sad that getting what I want means women and girls must hurt. But I must have it, so they must hurt."

And it is very much misogyny in action.

Isn't it obvious that GC feminists would want the issues to become mainstream, as that's the only way for them to make change to society?

When a poster tells women that I'd advise taking a look at the various groups and characters that have co-opted the label of Gender Critical ideology over the years, it's worth those posters doing the same and looking at the individuals who have been openly aligned with transactivists

It always seems a bit mean to post the details of all the sex offenders, extreme porn advocates, the flashers and stealers of women's clothes, let alone the discredited Mermaids charity with their paedophile / porn scandal & the reputational damage incurred by political parties uncritically celebrating someone involved in a child abuse case. But it's essential to point out on a thread about the need to protect children from an ideology doing so much harm to them, that trans activists rarely openly disassociate themselves from these dangerous people.
Smearing women for doing what women usually do - safeguarding children - no longer has credibility.

Agree TRAs are not feminists

“The fact that I've started actively changing how I dress toward more 'traditionally femme' clothing in unsafe places is wholly due to the fact that we've seen a huge uptick in people challenging any woman who dares to defy gender norms, and I don't particularly fancy having to deal with the resulting psychic damage if someone accidentally manages to get a hit.”

Fuck. That emotional manipulation just keeps coming doesn’t it?

Any women and girl who is non-conforming has likely been challenged in toilets! I was as a child. This hyperbole is oustanding. It is really top class stuff.

Luckily, we know we don’t shrivel away if we are asked.

Even better, there are now a growing number women who actively thank those women who have questioned their presence. They thank them for bravely speaking to ensure that the space is kept safe for female people!

Women have always asked! I was asked as a kid! What part of that do extreme trans activists not understand with this constant leveraging of gender non conforming women and children?

This paragraph is a great example of all the cognitive distortions, all the tactics being used to convince women that they must accept male people into female single sex spaces, or that male people who say they are women are ‘just like them’.

It also shows that this poster must believe that they pass. They must believe that because their parent allowed them hormones that women won’t notice. And yet, women and girls will. And they will remain silent because they fear the outcome.

The male cues are there. It might take longer for the women and girl’s to work it out if puberty has been blocked, but the cues are there. It is not just physical either.

Don’t forget ANTIFA. And many disenfranchised men of all ages, MRAs, and others that might lead to my post being deleted if mentioned.

Oh, and transmaxxers. Don’t forget the transmaxxers.

it's worth those posters doing the same and looking at the individuals who have been openly aligned with transactivists

One example would be antifa. The transactivists are aligned with domestic terrorism.

We know that at least some of them share the violent ideology. So it isn't merely that there is some sort of link, that they have just protested together. It's actually shared violent ideology.

Yes. This is what I have been trying to say.

But then if I remember correctly, hatched is very much about passing privilege.

What a weird situation, to find yourself actively encouraged toward reinforcing stereotypical gender roles due to the upsurge in the Gender Critical movement making it dangerous to stand out or appear in any way ambiguous. Still, that's where we are now. Whatever the initial intention, the Gender Police seem to have taken over.

Well it sounds like you’ve properly succeeded in “reinforcing stereotypical gender roles”. You are a male who is pretending to be something you are not to breach women’s boundaries. This is such a male stereotypical behaviour.

how I dress toward more 'traditionally femme' clothing

Just like putting on a costume, eh?

It is hilarious to see the complete lack of self awareness or critical thinking ability in that paragraph you have highlighted.

Um. No…. Female people who do not take testosterone have no need to try harder to fit ‘gender stereotypes’ to use a female toilet. Some women and girls were always questioned, it is how women and girls police their spaces due to lack of any other ability usually to enforce the societal norm.

The constant leveraging of gender non-conforming female people as human shields for these male people who force access to single sex spaces is offensive. It really is.

But no…. Women and girls are not being forced to adhere to stereotypes to use their spaces.

If you are male, use male or gender neutral spaces. Female spaces are not for you. And never were.

Just to add.

And female people taking testosterone have constantly told us that they seek alternative solutions to using female toilets. Being female people they fully understand that some women and girls may not quickly enough identify them as another female and get distressed.

Again, a massive difference between male and female people. Even amongst trans people.

My DD - tall, strong and athletic, with a (female) swimmer’s body, cut her hair into a buzz cut one hot summer when she had a job at a garden centre. She was challenged, politely, a number of times in the shared staff/customer toilets. There was never any unpleasantness as it immediately became clear she was a woman, after the first cursory glance.
Of course women are careful who comes into the spaces they consider theirs - not only for their own safety, but for the safety of others too.

It really is. Along with the male at the centre dismissing women’s voices.

WOMEN, Butterfly, Jane was asking about WOMEN.

We just don't exist as human beings to you, do we? Asked about women, you instantly swerve to a sad story about trans-identifying males.

I have great sympathy for boys and young men who are told that puberty blockers are safe, reversible, and desirable. We don't yet know exactly what long term health issues they may cause - we are hearing more from surgeons who treat young males for vaginoplasty and have to use skin from the colon rather than the penis - I won't go into detail but some of the effects of that sound very difficult to live with. My heart genuinely aches for any child who's been taught that extensive, risky plastic surgery will mean they have actually changed sex. It's a fantasy, and it's harming them. It's wrong.

As for 'passing' or not, well, you know. I'm drop-dead gorgeous on the internet, too.

What kind of 'toss' - the vast majority of public opinion? I'm happy to accept your sympathy, but I'm fucking delighted!

Most people are reasonable, and most understand that women's rights must be protected, and children need protected.

Yes, there are elements of the population who will actually be motivated by homophobia and a reactionary approach to 'gender'. We have made ample warnings about backlash.

The trouble is that reasonable, mild-mannered feminists who have been raising these issues for the past decade have been shat on from a great height by 'trans rights activists'. Pilloried, mocked, threatened, abused, cast out and smeared.

Had anyone listened to the women raising those concerns then reasonable accommodations and compromises could perhaps have been made, and we could have rubbed along. The 'trans' movement could have been accommodated with the rest of the population and things would maybe not have got so extreme.

Instead, we got the abuse. The women who have long been allies of trans people have been forced to draw our boundaries. Those boundaries have been mocked and ignored, over and over. You're continuing to do so right here, right now.

Every transgression showed the genderist movement for the woman-hating, boundary-pushing, destructive and extreme social force that it is, and one that cannot co-exist peacefully alongside other groups because the very foundational premise depends on coercion and manipulation and removing of societal boundaries and rules.

So here we are.

This thread was meant to be about guidance for schools.

I think the issue Butterfly is seizing on is that of uniforms and whether schools will now be able to enforce gendered uniforms for the sexes.
So suggesting the guidance being celebrated by GC feminists is enforcing gender roles.

I know GC feminists think all children should wear what they want, but not everyone believes that. There are going to be differences of opinion and practice following this guidance, some of which may enforce gendered uniform.

I'm ok with that. I wouldn't choose a school which allowed boys to wear dresses myself. But I'm not a GC feminist.

Once we've all agreed on the reality that no one can change sex and whatever you wear your sex remains constant, we can then move to disagreeing on uniform rules.

We're fine with that Butterfly, GC feminists and reality based womens rights campaigners are adult enough to agree where we agree and agree to disagree where we don't.

I wonder if more school choice might emerge from this?

Choose a school with a head who has traditional values or a head with GC beliefs etc may become something parents judge their school choice on.

The personal ideology and beliefs of the head teacher are really going to be exposed if this is left to their discretion as it looks like it will be.

They can choose to support transition if the family request it but they can now also refuse. That's really going to expose them.

Could I ask you safeguarding experts for a view on this post? It's a genuine clarification I need which I think will support me when discussing this in RL.

"We're invisible. That's...well that's half the point - it's why preventing us from having access to blockers in our teens is so cruel. It means we have no hope of escape."

I am sure that others have picked up that this is not just vanity that we are seeing here.

Not sure how to break it to Hatched, that maleness ain't invisible.

But seriously the hyperbole that is spread through hatched's posts is really outstanding.

Nearly every paragraph has either extraordinary hyperbole, emotional manipulation, misogyny, polarised thinking, complete lack of critical thinking, catastrophising, blaming, 'should' or a entire slew of cognitive distortions.

However, you ain't invisible.

And your advocacy of use of puberty blockers for any child is abhorrent.

I think leave woke adults to it, let them strip infront of AGPs in changing rooms and lose opportunities to them. Their children don't deserve it.

The guidelines have been mooted but aren't out yet, so I don't think anyone can really comment on the detail as yet?

I would say in Scotland in the past couple of years we suddenly had teachers/schools saying very clearly that parents are the most important people in a child's life and the child's first educators, etc.

It seems to have been something that had been discussed and decided it should be made clear. But of course Scotland has a different educational landscape than E&W.