School guidelines on gender identities/trans out this week

[ArabeIIaScott]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12208907/PM-says-children-not-allowed-switch-identities-schools-without-telling-parents.html

These are the only two articles I could find so far.

'Schools will be forced to tell parents if students are questioning their gender under new Government guidance to be published this week, according to a report. '

It's true that having female friends and fiercely disliking football lad culture aren't something I'd consider to be indicators that someone is a trans girl, but they were unusual enough at the time that they helped generate a sense that something was up.

i wanted to come back to this. Because further reading shows that it was in Europe/UK in the late 80s and 90s. Which is exactly when i was a teenager who rarely wore dresses and make up, loved football and "scrambled over tanks" a lot (military kid)

it didn't make me a) unusual or b) a boy.

Neither did my penchant for heavy metal and docs. Alsongside steak and beer

As it happened at that time bands like Japan and Duran Duran and people like Adam Ant and Boy George (who pre-singing fame had a fantastic look, i remember him being interviewed in Cosmo about it. I read Cosmo because i like looking at fashion and i was at a girls boarding school so it was always lying around.) oh and Steve Strange! Blitz Kids were a thing (I spent time in London at weekends, and that was when i finally got into makeup - borrowing eyeliner from my boyfriend!)

Even some of the younger soldiers who came into the NAAFI bar where i worked the summer i left school would wear a bit of eyeliner when they were off clubbing in Hamburg for the weekend. None of them were women. The very idea that they might think they were women for liking Japan, clothes, make-up and only doing the bare amount of sport to pass the annual fitness test would have made them laugh.

Gender non-conformity doesn't make anyone the opposite sex. Jeez - even Freddie Mercury behaved like a manly man a lot of the time. In nail varnish.

It has to be a traybake as you don't need alot of wrist strength to pop one of those babies onto a cooling rack, unlike a jar of jam which is completely off limits once you say words akin to 'I am a woman'.

Remember the guys saying they'd have to give up their model railway sets once they transitioned?

You cannot make this utter shite up.

Exactly Brefugee. I was a teenager in the early 80s and was very in to the Causual era clothes associated with following football at that time. I was always in what would be deemed boys clothes. I've still got an Aquascutum Mac bought with my first wage packet aged 16!

I then got in to the acid house/underground club scene and we all wore suits and no make up. I didn't actually start wearing make up until I got much older!

No one ever thought gender bending meant you were the opposite sex.

It's true that having female friends and fiercely disliking football lad culture aren't something I'd consider to be indicators that someone is a trans girl, but they were unusual enough at the time that they helped generate a sense that something was up.

It's astonishing isn't it! Nothing's 'up' other than your overwhelming sexism. Perhaps you should attempt to be a bit more, er, linguistically elusive.

Bref

It is the continued inconsistencies that appear in the posts that will be the most convincing to readers though.

This paragraph is stark.

It's true that having female friends and fiercely disliking football lad culture aren't something I'd consider to be indicators that someone is a trans girl, but they were unusual enough at the time that they helped generate a sense that something was up.

They weren’t unusual in my country, were they unusual here in the UK? These things most certainly would not generate a sense that something was up at all. It was normal.

As others have posted, it sounds very much like a family issue and/or a school issue than a real societal observation. And the reality is that this paragraph displays a childish self-absorption where a person has never sought to understand the childhood of others. I suspect that lack of interest could be about self-protection.

Sorry, I meant to add.

And yet, this is a person who is actively advocating that other children and teens get medicalised treatments based on something like this.

The inconsistencies are all throughout these posts. If you strip away the brittle bragging, it is a very sad story that remains and the disconnected thinking becomes very clear.

And this is what I mean by inconsistencies and disconnected thinking.

“When I've been able to, I've done what I can (as a vaguely respected, I guess, at least in circles who know I exist!) older trans person to challenge this kind of 'you like Call of Duty and wearing baseball caps: you must be a boy!' nonsense. It's important to bear in mind, though, that this often first manifests in ways that appear deeply questionable or ridiculous to us at first while people are trying to work out how to articulate how they are feeling.”

While at the same time writing this crap.

It's true that having female friends and fiercely disliking football lad culture aren't something I'd consider to be indicators that someone is a trans girl, but they were unusual enough at the time that they helped generate a sense that something was up.

So while supposedly stereotypes are to be ‘challenged’ by an ‘older respected, wildly successful, well travelled and still loving military equipment while attending to traybakes etc etc’ trans person, that trans person continues to use exactly the same stereotypes as a cue that there ‘was something up’ to validate their decisions.

“This is the only poster I've seen on this forum who has actively and directly misgendered a trans woman in a consistent fashion over multiple posts, rather than the near-ubiquitous pattern of passively doing so by either avoiding pronouns altogether or religiously using they. The effect is identical, of course, but I've just not seen the quiet part said out loud.”

This looks like an irate response of a male who simply cannot enforce women and girl’s full compliance of their demands.

For any fence sitting readers, this is yet another indication that whatever compromise you try to make, unless it is full compliance it will not be acceptable. In minds that seem to only comprehend polarised absolutes, it is never sufficient.

And posts like this one quoted never once acknowledge the degree of the control they wish to have over everyone else. There is a reason people often point out the narcissism behind these kind of statements.

This is exactly why the guidelines for schools are needed.

Guidelines that finally recognise that a small group of people cannot shape language to suit their concept of the world that doesn’t reflect material reality. And that enforcing others to do so means adherence to one group’s ideology.

Completely besides the point, but it's only thanks to a MN thread that I know that traybakes are a protestant thing. I'm still amazed by this years on.

It’s ridiculous. There has been pushback against sex based social and behavioural stereotypes since I was a child (and before that too) and I’m seventy this year. I don’t know where all this crap is coming from.
The things that make women’s lives difficult - and at the same time wonderful - almost all stem from their biology and reproductive capacity.

This one?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/mumsnet_classics/3527870-Which-is-the-tastiest-Protestant-traybake

Yes, that one @borntobequiet I got so much good baking inspiration of that thread.

I stumbled upon that Protestant traybakes thread during the first lockdown and was entranced.

Enlightening and lovely - probably one of my fave ever MN threads.

I have to confess I don’t really know what a ‘traybake’ is?

i went to a very old and traditional junior school in the 70s. Then to a very non-traditional but even older girls boarding school in the late 70s early 80s.
And in each and every one there were gender non-conforming children. They were encouraged to pursue their interests, regardless. Our sweing class in junior school was only sex segrated the first term i was there, we sewed little felt teddy bears and the boys all asked us to make them one. So the headmaster opened sewing to boys and woodwork to girls. And while it was only a few of each sex, some did go to "the other one" and thrived. In the 70s.

In the 70s Freddie Mercury wore nail varnish. Eric Clapton wore a granny-square crotchet jacket, David Bowie did what David Bowie did. Marc Bolan wore glitter eye-make up and so on and boinked any woman with a pulse who looked his way (not good but that was typical masculine behaviour)

We all had such high hopes when the likes of David Sylvian and Annie Lennox turned up. The Blitz Kid generation etc etc.

So no. Maybe in some families there was a "hands up horror" of gender non-conformity, but in the mainstream it was A Thing. It was so disappointing when it all started to go down the pan and you were either a boy or a girl. But with "crossdressing" making you the other rather than just a bloke in a dress etc.

A 'traybake' is a cake that you bake in a big flat tray. So, like, I suppose brownies? Tiffin?

Oh my...you now have a whole new world of tasty loveliness to explore!

I suppose strictly speaking its not cake.

Oh, god. I feel out of my depth. Don't flame me, mumsnet.

A traybake can be cake, I frequently cook carrot cake as a tray bake, its just a more convenient way to bake it to cut up when you need a lot of equal pieces, its something I do for school bake sales

'“This is the only poster I've seen on this forum who has actively and directly misgendered a trans woman in a consistent fashion over multiple posts, rather than the near-ubiquitous pattern of passively doing so by either avoiding pronouns altogether or religiously using they. The effect is identical, of course, but I've just not seen the quiet part said out loud.”'

Passive misgendering. This means, as far as I can tell, either:

1. failing to believe that a male is a female
2. failing to pretend that one does

This has to be an ultimately hugely unsatisfactory endeavour, surely.

You cannot, you simply cannot force people to believe what they know to be false.

You can force or pressurise people to lie or pretend, absolutely. But is that really desirable? Is it the exertion of power that's key, in that case? Coercing people into lying?

Sounds like a pretty hollow and unsatisfactory achievement, to me. 'I forced a bunch of people on the internet to pretend they acquiesce'.

I guess it's power, of sorts.

.

I always think of the school sponge cake when anyone mentions traybake.

ahh.... thank you. I see.

So..... just anything cooked in a tray. Right. So, a frittata could be a 'tray bake'? What about scalloped potatoes? That thing where you slice up potatoes and pour in cream etc.

I obviously should go and read that thread.

“This is the only poster I've seen on this forum who has actively and directly misgendered a trans woman in a consistent fashion over multiple posts, rather than the near-ubiquitous pattern of passively doing so by either avoiding pronouns altogether or religiously using they. The effect is identical, of course, but I've just not seen the quiet part said out loud.”

I've been misgendered a lot on the internet over the years. A lot. And you know what? when it bothers me i say "btw I'm a woman" and when it doesn't i let it go. 99% of the time it isn't relevant to the discussion. I get that if you have gender dysphoria it can be an issue 100% of the time. In which case you really really need your name and/or avatar clear on that.