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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

School guidelines on gender identities/trans out this week

674 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 19/06/2023 10:36

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12208907/PM-says-children-not-allowed-switch-identities-schools-without-telling-parents.html

These are the only two articles I could find so far.

'Schools will be forced to tell parents if students are questioning their gender under new Government guidance to be published this week, according to a report. '

Schools to be banned from letting kids change gender if parents say no

SCHOOLS will be banned from letting kids change their gender if their parents say no, The Sun can reveal. And children who want to be called by another pronoun — he, she, they — will not be able to…

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
Boomboom22 · 22/06/2023 23:49

How long ago did you transition though? Because yes 15 20 years ago all you describe most certainly happened. But does it now?

Hepwo · 22/06/2023 23:51

Reminds me of this guy.

School guidelines on gender identities/trans out this week
ButterflyHatched · 23/06/2023 00:05

Boomboom22 · 22/06/2023 23:49

How long ago did you transition though? Because yes 15 20 years ago all you describe most certainly happened. But does it now?

Socially, mid 90's. Medically, late 90's. Surgically, mid 00's (waitlists were hell even back then)

Helleofabore · 23/06/2023 00:27

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 22/06/2023 20:13

I wonder if the problem is not feeling awkward and uncomfortable as a teenager, but rather being too self absorbed and uninterested in others to notice that literally everyone else feels the same way

there does seem to be a consistent theme in the type of people who come here to talk about their gender identity

Yes.

I think it is so very clear in all the posts that it is all self absorbed introspection.

It is almost like there is a disconnect with how others felt or dealt with things.

And the posts keep bringing up the sexist stereotypes. In fact, I am certainly surprised at the assertion that having friends who were the opposite sex meant something was ‘worthy of considering why’. Sounds like a completely different world to me. Remarkable.

Helleofabore · 23/06/2023 00:31

ButterflyHatched · 22/06/2023 20:38

@Boomboom22 Not sure what I should be feeling like I need to justify - I bloody love my life!

It's far, far more than I could ever have asked for or imagined. I'm affluent, successful and well liked with a great career. I have an enormous group of friends and am well known and respected within the communities I'm active in with a reputation for being quirky and entertaining and a good and supportive listener. Throughout my twenties and thirties I've had a happy and fulfilling sex life and that shows little sign of changing. Family friends who visited a few weeks ago and whom I haven't seen for about two decades remarked on how my sister and I look almost indistinguishable. I'm happy, attractive and healthy - I'm a little sad that I wasn't able to have kids like my sister was, but I'm loving being a kick-ass aunt and helping her bring hers up.

I'm really not sure what more I could ask for, and I'm acutely aware that far fewer of those things would be true if I hadn't transitioned when I did and had the opportunities I'd had because of it.

I'm afraid 'you never needed to do this' 'I'm so sorry you felt you had to' style comments and alluding to supposedly life-shortening and disability generating treatments isn't going to land here, my friend.

Oh my!

And yet we are still being questioned about how we can pick ‘male patterns’….

ButterflyHatched · 23/06/2023 01:13

@Helleofabore that's it, though, isn't it?

"We can always tell."
"No, you cannot always tell. I am consistent, decades-long living proof."
"How self-absorbed!"

"Blockers cause harm to kids."
"No they don't. Please stop lying."
"But they do. Here are some studies with flawed methodology that I'm misrepresenting."
"Those studies are flawed."
"They're experimental. There is no long term evidence."
"I'm long-term decades-long living proof."
"Well it might have worked for you, but you are miserable because you transitioned young."
"I'm really not."
"But you are really. You have health issues."
"Here is a summary of all the reasons why I'm really, really not. I'd like kids to have, at a bare minimum, the opportunities I did."
"You're a self-absorbed extreme trans rights activist who wants to mutilate children"

"Your genderfeels are invalid. You will never be a woman."
"a. that's rude b. can we talk about how we are defining woman"
"Stop speaking over women. Male pattern aggression"

Did I miss anything? Please, it's incredibly tedious to just have the same exchange with you again and again.

OldCrone · 23/06/2023 01:20

You appear have very poor comprehension skills @ButterflyHatched.

I'm sure I'm not alone in finding your long, rambling posts barely comprehensible, yet you seem unable to understand the much more straightforward comments that others are posting. Why is that, do you think?

Datun · 23/06/2023 02:15

Helleofabore · 23/06/2023 00:27

Yes.

I think it is so very clear in all the posts that it is all self absorbed introspection.

It is almost like there is a disconnect with how others felt or dealt with things.

And the posts keep bringing up the sexist stereotypes. In fact, I am certainly surprised at the assertion that having friends who were the opposite sex meant something was ‘worthy of considering why’. Sounds like a completely different world to me. Remarkable.

Indeed.

I'm an adult human, and I recognise within myself a constellation of data points that I identify as female

Did we ever

Get.

A.

List?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2023 02:19

"a. that's rude b. can we talk about how we are defining woman"

A woman is an adult human female. This isn't an invitation to a long, wheedling, force teamed, tediously wordy negotiation, it's the case that males simply don't fall into this category by default.

SunnyEgg · 23/06/2023 06:46

Datun · 23/06/2023 02:15

Indeed.

I'm an adult human, and I recognise within myself a constellation of data points that I identify as female

Did we ever

Get.

A.

List?

Were the data points meant to be not liking football, long hair and not wanting to be in male changing rooms?

The posts are hard to decipher

I’d say none of that stacks up to changing sex though. As you can’t

Nellodee · 23/06/2023 06:47

Sex is complicated. Sex is also binary. There is a finite list of disorders of sexual development. Every one of those disorders results in a person who is either male or female.
Despite there being a list of edge cases that complicate but do not alter the binary definition of sex, the vast majority of people can be very easily split into male or female with a minuscule error margin.

What does reflect a very basic understanding of sex are people who read “sex is complicated” and then think that the existence of people with dsds has anything to do with the complexity of identifying their own sex.

Nellodee · 23/06/2023 06:53

If a baby came out of you, you’re female. If blood came out of you at near monthly intervals, you’re female. If you masturbated and semen came out of your penis, you’re male.

Those three tests conclusively prove your sex for almost all adults on the planet, including the vast majority who complain about how complicated sex is.

I’m sure hatched, who apparently transitioned before puberty, will claim to fit into none of these categories. I don’t really give a crap, because I’m not half as interested in hatched as hatched is. Based on a constellation of statistical probabilities, I very much doubt hatched has any reason to believe they have ever had a dsd.

Helleofabore · 23/06/2023 07:24

SunnyEgg · 23/06/2023 06:46

Were the data points meant to be not liking football, long hair and not wanting to be in male changing rooms?

The posts are hard to decipher

I’d say none of that stacks up to changing sex though. As you can’t

Don’t forget being a boy but having friends who were girls, playing ‘thoughtful games’, and liking it when some person who couldn’t see clearly called you the opposite sex.

oldwomanwhoruns · 23/06/2023 07:26

I came here for an update on the school guidelines. And all we have are some self-absorbed ramblings sigh

Nellodee · 23/06/2023 07:30

It’s amazingly the mental gymnastics you have to do as a male, when you start at the conclusion “I am a woman” and try to work back from there.

It’s like reading “prove that” questions in a maths a-level where the students really can’t do it. They get so far, then there’s a line that makes no sense at all, then the conclusion. They know their answer is bollocks, but they hope you’ll look at the first line and the last line and just wash over the bits in between.

Datun · 23/06/2023 07:35

Helleofabore · 23/06/2023 07:24

Don’t forget being a boy but having friends who were girls, playing ‘thoughtful games’, and liking it when some person who couldn’t see clearly called you the opposite sex.

Lol. Reasons I'm a woman Part III. We've had wearing a towel on your head like hair, unpopping a onesie, and admiring the mean girl movies, but hand on heart, I've never heard of someone else's short sightedness

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 23/06/2023 08:05

I think we all need to make peace with the fact that the poster who has pissed all over this thread just isn't going to see reason. ever. this is a person who

  1. lives their life pretending and expecting others to pretend that they are a member of the opposite sex

  2. tried to convince posters on a site called Mumsnet that there's no such thing as a female body. This is bordering on performance art

  3. doesn't care about others. they know their presence in women's single sex spaces makes women uncomfortable, and really, really wish there was a solution

and that's fine. The world is full of selfish people with terrible judgement. they deserve to be happy just as much as the next person. but what you don't do is consult them on guidelines for safeguarding children. let's hope the department for education have figured that out

ArabeIIaScott · 23/06/2023 08:06

Yes, Bernard. Thank you.

Also: This is bordering on performance art

😁

OP posts:
pues · 23/06/2023 08:16

I think the post is a US soldier's fantasy tbh.

Datun · 23/06/2023 08:18

pues · 23/06/2023 08:16

I think the post is a US soldier's fantasy tbh.

Yes, you and everyone else, I imagine.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 23/06/2023 08:24

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2023 02:19

"a. that's rude b. can we talk about how we are defining woman"

A woman is an adult human female. This isn't an invitation to a long, wheedling, force teamed, tediously wordy negotiation, it's the case that males simply don't fall into this category by default.

It the negotiation isn’t it? So creepy

pues · 23/06/2023 08:28

It was the traybake that swung it for meGrin

SunnyEgg · 23/06/2023 08:32

pues · 23/06/2023 08:28

It was the traybake that swung it for meGrin

I don’t know why but traybake made me laugh

But I think now on all that has been written it is a bit fantasy

Helleofabore · 23/06/2023 08:44

ButterflyHatched · 23/06/2023 01:13

@Helleofabore that's it, though, isn't it?

"We can always tell."
"No, you cannot always tell. I am consistent, decades-long living proof."
"How self-absorbed!"

"Blockers cause harm to kids."
"No they don't. Please stop lying."
"But they do. Here are some studies with flawed methodology that I'm misrepresenting."
"Those studies are flawed."
"They're experimental. There is no long term evidence."
"I'm long-term decades-long living proof."
"Well it might have worked for you, but you are miserable because you transitioned young."
"I'm really not."
"But you are really. You have health issues."
"Here is a summary of all the reasons why I'm really, really not. I'd like kids to have, at a bare minimum, the opportunities I did."
"You're a self-absorbed extreme trans rights activist who wants to mutilate children"

"Your genderfeels are invalid. You will never be a woman."
"a. that's rude b. can we talk about how we are defining woman"
"Stop speaking over women. Male pattern aggression"

Did I miss anything? Please, it's incredibly tedious to just have the same exchange with you again and again.

I think we already know what your internal dialogue is like by now. This post is another beauty, a real gem.

And it is full of misinformation too.

You have ignored the fact that even the Tavistock admitted there was NO studies that showed that hormonal treatments for children improved their life over non-medical treatments. Independent agencies have reviewed all the studies and released comment that there is none.

I am laughing too at your indignation that yes…. The studies have got poor methodology and weak conclusions. Didn’t you once proudly present us the Branstrom & Pachankis study as evidence? While never acknowledging that they retracted their conclusions because they had to admit that their conclusions were false? If that wasn’t you, I apologise.

Either way, you make claims constantly about the success of your treatment. You have previously admitted you know little about the current female teen cohort or you just won’t acknowledge that the current female cohort of children and teens are nothing like YOU. In fact reading your posts, you seem to lack any real perspective on what a normal and healthy childhood and teen life should be.

Your entire world is about you.

If I found out someone with your attitudes was in any position of direct influence such as mentoring or advising to my teen, I would be removing my teen. Not because of your trans status, but because of the attitude you have display over the years on MN. That you pride yourself as a listener isn’t surprising. It seems to fit the profile you wish to present. But you have shown here that you are only about you.

It also incenses you that due to this current female youth transitioner cohort might change the treatment paths for males too. YOU treat this cohort group with such contempt by ignoring their needs. I remember, you dismissing their needs because it might make it harder for males.

Yet, even YOU admit your ‘success’ may be due to PAIS. Yet YOU want all children, who most likely don’t have any differences of sex development to have treatments that may or may not have been more successful due to your ‘sluggish puberty’.

What is clear in every one of your posts is that you are so deeply entrenched in validating your own medical treatment that you seem incapable of acknowledging you are not the representative of the cohort of current transitioners at all.

Of course, I also think you have attributed some things that others have said that I haven’t on that list, but hey ho. It doesn’t matter. Considering your adherence to the falsehood that we believe in biological essentialism, more falsity isn’t much of an issue really is it?

I also think by now that anyone reading this thread probably has picked up much about your personality or psychology. You are incensed that women have told you that generally women can pick up male cues when someone sees a person in real life or through extended written communication, aren’t you? The women who love you have supported your belief that women can’t tell. I suspect other women who would have admitted otherwise can sense your true self and will simply continue that lie. Maybe you are a miracle and do pass completely until someone has to interact with you and you show your true nature.

You are also incensed that reality in no way supports your inpenetrable prose that you seem to have made up to magically allow you to claim any part of being female. You absolutely hate material reality it seems and I understand you are hugely offended when we laugh at all your carefully constructed prose. Those paragraphs you feel are wonderfully intelligent and clever. Yet, even the very basic foundation of all you wrote was false.

Feminists who reject that you should be treated as a female in matters when sex should be prioritised are not biological essentialists. Even though that is a misunderstanding you seem to have built your entire argument with feminists on.

And No one denies your existence, you are here and we are interacting with you.

Those two points- the mistaken attribution of bioessentialism and the hyperbolic claim we don’t want trans people to exist- are common falsehoods directly from twitter. And the repetition of these false points never makes them true anymore than the first time they were posited.

What you have shown on this thread is that your world is so carefully constructed and curated on such falsehoods. Whether it is your inability to understand the current female children and teens, or your magic prose written to allow you access to being a woman, or your inability to comprehend that you have no evidence that the medical treatments you advocate for are anything but experimental still. (making you an extreme activist) After all this time. You are making claim after claim based on falsity.

We are telling you so. Then your reaction is to dismiss our opinions in your very misogynistic way, while lying to yourself that we are just biological essentialists so we are easy to dismiss and vilify.

You have strawmanned your way through pages on this thread. It has been incredible to see.

But this post from you is just another peek into a mind that cannot simply comprehend that you are wrong. I think I have several reasons why you have that inability that I won’t share. They would be deleted. I doubt I am alone in deducing those reasons though, as your posts clearly show your disconnected thinking on numerous issues.

Helleofabore · 23/06/2023 08:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/06/2023 02:19

"a. that's rude b. can we talk about how we are defining woman"

A woman is an adult human female. This isn't an invitation to a long, wheedling, force teamed, tediously wordy negotiation, it's the case that males simply don't fall into this category by default.

A perfect place for this.

Magdalen nails it.

Magdalen Berns Liar GIF – Magdalen Berns Liar Id Rather Be Rude Than A Liar – discover and share GIFs

Click to view the GIF

https://tenor.com/en-GB/view/magdalen-berns-liar-id-rather-be-rude-than-a-liar-gif-14867081

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