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Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight

443 replies

chouxchoux · 30/05/2023 20:43

With the brilliant Kathleen Stock.

Anyone planning to watch?

(Apologies if there’s an existing thread I’ve missed).

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waterlego · 31/05/2023 10:07

Also just want to join those who have declared their crushes on KS. I have one too, despite being a straight woman.

potniatheron · 31/05/2023 10:16

I too have a crush on Doc Stock. She is exactly my type. But most of all her intellect and steely calm.

All the TRAs having meltdowns on Twitter because their arguments were exposed and found to be baseless and ridiculous.

Best thing you can do with this pernicious, narcissistic ideology is expose it to sunlight.

Datun · 31/05/2023 10:16

Mmmnotsure · 31/05/2023 10:05

@Datun Yes. I suspect Whittle went on for ages to camera and was expecting to see their entire life story being broadcast.

You got it. All-day filming, apparently. All about me.
Whittle is upset about 'how they represent me'. That it's not explained WHO I AM! Ad nauseam.

SW takes particular exception to KS's reference to being misgendered. Says the tall KS cannot understand anything of the life lived by 'this 5'2" trans man'. The 5'2" bit is perhaps of particular significance to SW.

Well perhaps SW could use their personal experience and make sure that all the young girls who take puberty blockers and cross sex hormones understand that they will be stunting their growth, as well. And very likely actually be shorter than they would have been otherwise.

Instead of being jealous of stock's natural androgyny and height, ffs.

don't tell me that this entire ideology isn't lauded as a panacea for a whole range of mental health and self image issues.

Mmmnotsure · 31/05/2023 10:21

waterlego · 31/05/2023 10:07

Wait, so Whittle is jealous that Stock has been missexed on occasion?

Whittle is cross that KS 'even claims she now understands a little of how it feels to be trans having occasionally been misgendered herself'.

The whole blog is a real doozy.

waterlego · 31/05/2023 10:24

Oh I see @Mmmnotsure. thank you for explaining.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 31/05/2023 10:33

Just finished watching on channel 4 catch up (good to see it was the main programme they push at you when you sign in).

Interesting people like Whittle are whining about it being the Kathleen Stock Show. If anything it was Katy John Went who was the star. But presumably they can’t say that…. Reasonable trans people are almost as much of a threat to them as reasonable feminists.
He was just so much more thoughtful, wise, and forward looking than the other trans people. And Finn Mackay came across as tragically trying to stay relevant in an ‘I’m not like those other old people’ way.
The Cambridge students showed up very badly. They came across as ignorant, self involved and the debater in particular was a bully. Why does society put young people on a pedestal so much?

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 10:34

Highly depressing the amount of usually sensible people allowing themselves to be force teamed by the fragrant Katy Jon.

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 10:36

Almost needless to say, a short google shows Katy Jon had a trans widow of his own. One can only assume she did the cleaning when they were married

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 10:38

I will say that I think the programme supported the assertion that trans people are often vulnerable and in need of support.

AgathaAllAlong · 31/05/2023 10:51

Sad to me that even women cannot fathom a woman having an original voice and a protector role without her being an object of sexual attraction.

Helleofabore · 31/05/2023 10:59

KJ Went is not an individual I would trust with the rights of women and children. They went to great lengths to appear reasonable last night to be fair. I had wondered why they had been tweeting about being open to discussion in the last week. I hadn’t seen them being so vocal lately.

BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 11:00

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 10:34

Highly depressing the amount of usually sensible people allowing themselves to be force teamed by the fragrant Katy Jon.

I'm not sure anyone is allowing themselves to be force-teamed with Katy Jon.

Saying that Katy Jon's contributions to the documentary were on the reasonable end of the scale are not the same thing.
I should imagine that the conversations between her and Linda are very interesting - the points of disagreement (using women's toilets, the hurt and gaslighting done to trans widows and the children of the impacted family etc).

Reasonable conversations with constructive conversation around contentious issues are surely the best way forward. That's not the same thing as forced teaming, by a long way.

KalimbaMoon · 31/05/2023 11:03

There are tweets declaring Kathleen Stock to be a trans man. Just because she has short hair and doesn’t wear make-up - crikey. Way to let the mask slip and tell us you believe we should all be conforming to outdated gender stereotypes.

TinselAngel · 31/05/2023 11:04

Reasonable conversations with constructive conversation around contentious issues are surely the best way forward. That's not the same thing as forced teaming, by a long way.

Yes it is. It's exactly the same dynamic as we've seen with Hayton, Yardley and all the other "reasonable transexuals" du jour who always turn out to actually want pretty much the same things a lot of the other TRAs want, they're just going about it in a more subtle manner.

JanesLittleGirl · 31/05/2023 11:06

AgathaAllAlong · 31/05/2023 10:51

Sad to me that even women cannot fathom a woman having an original voice and a protector role without her being an object of sexual attraction.

From Dictionary.com:

A girl crush is a non-sexual, non-romantic admiration that one woman has for another.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 31/05/2023 11:11

I wonder if Katy Jon is still using women's spaces, despite their realisation that this could scare/frighten/alarm women?

I quite liked Katy Jon but I'm not convinced that her position is tenable. I mean everyone thinks they're the reasonable middle of the road person and just because no-one has monstered Katy Jon (as far as I know?) doesn't make her more middle of the road than Kathleen Stock. Kathleen Stock is also quite willing to discuss and debate with people who disagree with her, she continued the Cambridge debate without being derailed even after being mightily insulted by Kass. Most of the people who disagree with her don't want to argue with her at all, they just want to shut her up.

Kathleen Stock said "we are where we are" but no-one said "we are where we are in the middle of all this toxicity because of #nodebate" (and the longer the lack of debate the nastier the battle once the lid finally comes off) But perhaps that was implied by the rest of the show.

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 11:11

Crushes aren't always 'sexual', though, are they? I think they are sometimes just a measure of esteem and admiration.

(I don't have a crush on KS, for what it's worth, I just think she's great.)

NotTerfNorCis · 31/05/2023 11:12

KalimbaMoon · 31/05/2023 11:03

There are tweets declaring Kathleen Stock to be a trans man. Just because she has short hair and doesn’t wear make-up - crikey. Way to let the mask slip and tell us you believe we should all be conforming to outdated gender stereotypes.

Yes this is one of the problems with genderism. It reinforces gender stereotypes. A woman who steps outside them is no longer a woman. It's regressive at heart.

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 11:13

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 31/05/2023 11:11

I wonder if Katy Jon is still using women's spaces, despite their realisation that this could scare/frighten/alarm women?

I quite liked Katy Jon but I'm not convinced that her position is tenable. I mean everyone thinks they're the reasonable middle of the road person and just because no-one has monstered Katy Jon (as far as I know?) doesn't make her more middle of the road than Kathleen Stock. Kathleen Stock is also quite willing to discuss and debate with people who disagree with her, she continued the Cambridge debate without being derailed even after being mightily insulted by Kass. Most of the people who disagree with her don't want to argue with her at all, they just want to shut her up.

Kathleen Stock said "we are where we are" but no-one said "we are where we are in the middle of all this toxicity because of #nodebate" (and the longer the lack of debate the nastier the battle once the lid finally comes off) But perhaps that was implied by the rest of the show.

If KJ is still using women's spaces, even after realisation that KJ's presence may cause actual terror to women, then KJ doesn't strike me as in any way harmless or moderate.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 31/05/2023 11:14

AgathaAllAlong · 31/05/2023 10:51

Sad to me that even women cannot fathom a woman having an original voice and a protector role without her being an object of sexual attraction.

Humans like to have sex with other humans

people really do seem to struggle with the fact that we’re animals

alongside that we all have amazing minds. The two things coexist

waterlego · 31/05/2023 11:19

Yes @KalimbaMoon. Just been rolling my eyes at this one. Proof that many of these people simply do not understand the gender critical position at all. Which is either because they’re not very bright, or because they have never even tried to engage with and understand the GC position. They can’t possibly have read any decent GC Twitter threads, blogs, essays or books- including those from Stock herself- if they think we’re against gender non-conformity.

In contrast, most GCs I know have at least read up on and tried to understand the TRA position. Not least because we want to have a fair and proper discussion and debate. The GC side definitely has the bigger brains on board! Plus people like me who don’t have giant brains but at least have the capacity to understand that gender ideology is deeply regressive and that Stock being gender non-conformist in her presentation is not hypocritical to her GC views.

Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight
ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 11:21

Deciding that a woman who very much is not a 'trans man' and has written a whole book on how she is not a 'trans man' is in fact a 'trans man' strikes me as fucking unbelievably fucking rude.

Respect our identity, but we'll decide what yours is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/05/2023 11:21

That woman seems a bit dense.

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 11:21

Oh, it's her.

I see.