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Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight

443 replies

chouxchoux · 30/05/2023 20:43

With the brilliant Kathleen Stock.

Anyone planning to watch?

(Apologies if there’s an existing thread I’ve missed).

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AlecTrevelyan006 · 31/05/2023 07:14

Could have been worse, could have been better. Either way, it wouldn’t have been shown a year ago. It’s a (bizarre) sign of progress that the programme was made at all.

elgreco · 31/05/2023 07:22

I agree, Prof Stock comes off as sane, rational and besieged. The TRA are all incoherent and me me me meeeee.

BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 07:22

I watched it last night and have just been catching up on comments here.

I thought it was a well balanced programme. Yes, it didn't get in to the depth of the arguments but it did a great job of making it very clear that there are views out there (like Kathleen Stock's) which are simply that TWANW, yet TWATW. They have a male body, therefore everything that applies to a male body still applies. Laws, health, safeguarding etc. However, they want to live as TW, which is fine. That's not "biological essentialism", it's just a sensible interpretation of reality.

One of the most obvious omissions was TW in sports. However, anyone watching who has recently "peaked", even if they didn't have any wider knowledge or interest in the subject, as a result of this issue is likely to come away more informed than before.

it seems to me that the fundamental objection to the programme, from those complaining about it, is that it featured Kathleen Stock. They wanted her cancelled. They wanted her silenced. And there she is: on TV, being heard. That’s what’s causing the rage.

Agreed.

And as for Stephen Whittle tantruming... That's all it comes across as. Katy Jon got probably about the same amount of air time as Kathleen Stock. So Stephen just sounds childish "it should be meeeeeeeeeee".

I agree with you @thirdfiddle that it would have been great to hear more of Katy Jon and Linda's conversation. Two people debating respectfully from two very different viewpoints sounds fascinating. Oxford students massively let themselves down on that one. They had an opportunity to do this and instead used it to Trojan horse their discrimination of Kathleen Stock. That wasn't clever and I suspect that every viewer saw through it.

Summerhillsquare · 31/05/2023 08:03

AlecTrevelyan006 · 31/05/2023 07:14

Could have been worse, could have been better. Either way, it wouldn’t have been shown a year ago. It’s a (bizarre) sign of progress that the programme was made at all.

This.

And I too have a crush on Dr Stock.

NancyDrawed · 31/05/2023 08:18

KatyJon always does come across as reasonable when I have seen him on things. I hadn't heard his back story before and he does appear to have a degree of empathy regarding how his presence may affect women, which is lacking in the majority of TW I've seen and heard. But he's not typical of the TW in the media from what I have seen.

All that said, I had reason to go back to the 'we're still here' thread from 2018 at the weekend and at that conference, James Morton said what worked in Scotland's was a “constructive, friendly, innocent” tone when debating or in dialogue with the GC side. To be mindful about who is watching - essentially like what we do with the lurkers on the FWR board. To make the TRAs look like the reasonable side. (quote in bold)
so I unfortunately did have that at the back of my mind when I was watching KatyJon.

borntobequiet · 31/05/2023 08:46

Datun · 30/05/2023 23:43

The other thing that gets me, do those transmen who, I'm afraid to say, just come across as young lesbian women with quite a few issues, to me, do they understand AGP when they see it??

surely, they must encounter men with AGP. Do they genuinely see themselves the same? Two sides of the same coin?

I’m sure they don’t, as probably the last thing they have any notion about is male sexuality. If they did understand, they’d know that their pretending to be men was utterly unconvincing and pointless.

TinyTopknot · 31/05/2023 08:52

off · 31/05/2023 03:14

DP and I both spontaneously burst into laughter at the hyper-earnest "Weee are trans and cis togehhhtherrr, taaake it to the Lord in prayyyyer" bit.

So did we! It was bloody funny.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 31/05/2023 08:52

Another one who thought this was a fascinating watch. At times a bit overwhelming to see the extremes of intolerance thrown at the mild mannered but steely Kathleen. A useful example of what we already know - that the hyperbole and unhinged behaviour is from one side, clearly evidenced by the subsequent public unravelling of so many trans contributers who appear amazed that Kathleen was given air time. 🙄
Now let's have one on women's sport and one about the unethical medical experimentation on vulnerable young people by the NHS, aided & abetted by these lobby groups.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 31/05/2023 09:11

It wasn't deep but it was pretty balanced. So that's good.

And I did learn something - not that I'd paid much attention before and it would have been obvious if I'd looked on Wikipedia, but I hadn't realised that Steven Whittle is a transman. I'd previously assumed just a mansplaining gay activist. Oops! (Where's the MN embarrassed emoji when I need it?) That potentially puts a new slant on the threats Steven has received. It's a sex-based old world, eh?

xabia · 31/05/2023 09:12

Not enough time to consider many of the most important issues but hopefully C4 will soon be emboldened to cover transitioning of children, AGP and men in women's sport.

Anklespraying · 31/05/2023 09:17

5/ Kass drops all the non binary they/them stuff for decent nights out at the the Cambridge union where he looks like any other plumy voiced, long haired over privileged not terribly good night time encounter. Kass likes being ANGRY and CONDEMNATORY.

Not terribly good night time encounter!

Dennis!

MagicSpring · 31/05/2023 09:24

'James Morton said what worked in Scotland's was a “constructive, friendly, innocent” tone when debating or in dialogue with the GC side. To be mindful about who is watching - essentially like what we do with the lurkers on the FWR board. To make the TRAs look like the reasonable side. (quote in bold)
so I unfortunately did have that at the back of my mind when I was watching KatyJon.'

But the flip side of that is to condemn people for what they have not said, on the grounds that they might have been thinking it, as has so often been done to JK Rowling.

Datun · 31/05/2023 09:29

BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 07:22

I watched it last night and have just been catching up on comments here.

I thought it was a well balanced programme. Yes, it didn't get in to the depth of the arguments but it did a great job of making it very clear that there are views out there (like Kathleen Stock's) which are simply that TWANW, yet TWATW. They have a male body, therefore everything that applies to a male body still applies. Laws, health, safeguarding etc. However, they want to live as TW, which is fine. That's not "biological essentialism", it's just a sensible interpretation of reality.

One of the most obvious omissions was TW in sports. However, anyone watching who has recently "peaked", even if they didn't have any wider knowledge or interest in the subject, as a result of this issue is likely to come away more informed than before.

it seems to me that the fundamental objection to the programme, from those complaining about it, is that it featured Kathleen Stock. They wanted her cancelled. They wanted her silenced. And there she is: on TV, being heard. That’s what’s causing the rage.

Agreed.

And as for Stephen Whittle tantruming... That's all it comes across as. Katy Jon got probably about the same amount of air time as Kathleen Stock. So Stephen just sounds childish "it should be meeeeeeeeeee".

I agree with you @thirdfiddle that it would have been great to hear more of Katy Jon and Linda's conversation. Two people debating respectfully from two very different viewpoints sounds fascinating. Oxford students massively let themselves down on that one. They had an opportunity to do this and instead used it to Trojan horse their discrimination of Kathleen Stock. That wasn't clever and I suspect that every viewer saw through it.

And as for Stephen Whittle tantruming... That's all it comes across as. Katy Jon got probably about the same amount of air time as Kathleen Stock. So Stephen just sounds childish "it should be meeeeeeeeeee".

Yes. I suspect Whittle went on for ages to camera and was expecting to see their entire life story being broadcast.

From memory when whittle was on here, they had a very odd, slightly Victorian Miss view of the world and their part in it, which wasn't particularly interesting. So I'm not surprised most of it was cut.

BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 09:31

BonfireLady · 31/05/2023 07:22

I watched it last night and have just been catching up on comments here.

I thought it was a well balanced programme. Yes, it didn't get in to the depth of the arguments but it did a great job of making it very clear that there are views out there (like Kathleen Stock's) which are simply that TWANW, yet TWATW. They have a male body, therefore everything that applies to a male body still applies. Laws, health, safeguarding etc. However, they want to live as TW, which is fine. That's not "biological essentialism", it's just a sensible interpretation of reality.

One of the most obvious omissions was TW in sports. However, anyone watching who has recently "peaked", even if they didn't have any wider knowledge or interest in the subject, as a result of this issue is likely to come away more informed than before.

it seems to me that the fundamental objection to the programme, from those complaining about it, is that it featured Kathleen Stock. They wanted her cancelled. They wanted her silenced. And there she is: on TV, being heard. That’s what’s causing the rage.

Agreed.

And as for Stephen Whittle tantruming... That's all it comes across as. Katy Jon got probably about the same amount of air time as Kathleen Stock. So Stephen just sounds childish "it should be meeeeeeeeeee".

I agree with you @thirdfiddle that it would have been great to hear more of Katy Jon and Linda's conversation. Two people debating respectfully from two very different viewpoints sounds fascinating. Oxford students massively let themselves down on that one. They had an opportunity to do this and instead used it to Trojan horse their discrimination of Kathleen Stock. That wasn't clever and I suspect that every viewer saw through it.

Just correcting myself...

Cambridge students massively let themselves down. My brain had leapt ahead to the Oxford debate that was going on at the same time as the programme aired. D'oh.

Appalonia · 31/05/2023 09:33

Iconic

Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight
AutumnCrow · 31/05/2023 09:35

off · 31/05/2023 03:14

DP and I both spontaneously burst into laughter at the hyper-earnest "Weee are trans and cis togehhhtherrr, taaake it to the Lord in prayyyyer" bit.

I can honestly say I've never seen anything quite like it. Like an anthem for Gender Aid.

ArabeIIaScott · 31/05/2023 09:41

Appalonia · 31/05/2023 09:33

Iconic

It sure is.

EmmaGrundyForPM · 31/05/2023 09:42

Appalonia · 31/05/2023 09:33

Iconic

I keep seeing this photo but don't know who it is,can someone please enlighten me

NotTerfNorCis · 31/05/2023 09:54

I don't know what I missed in the documentary, but something has upset this person.

Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight
lanadelgrey · 31/05/2023 09:56

It’s Kathleen Stock going into the OU surrounded by a security detail (and incidentally looking incredibly cool). She is one stylish woman

soddingspiderseason · 31/05/2023 09:58

NotTerfNorCis · 31/05/2023 09:54

I don't know what I missed in the documentary, but something has upset this person.

This is advocating violent extremism and it's about time it was treated in the same way as other terrorist threats.

Mmmnotsure · 31/05/2023 10:05

@Datun Yes. I suspect Whittle went on for ages to camera and was expecting to see their entire life story being broadcast.

You got it. All-day filming, apparently. All about me.
Whittle is upset about 'how they represent me'. That it's not explained WHO I AM! Ad nauseam.

SW takes particular exception to KS's reference to being misgendered. Says the tall KS cannot understand anything of the life lived by 'this 5'2" trans man'. The 5'2" bit is perhaps of particular significance to SW.

waterlego · 31/05/2023 10:07

Wait, so Whittle is jealous that Stock has been missexed on occasion?