Female cyclists in podium no-show after being beaten by male cyclist

[EdgeOfACoin]

https://www.outkick.com/cyclists-no-show-post-race-podium-after-biological-male-finishes-1st-in-female-race/

This was in a Colorado - Utah race a couple of days ago. Apologies if there's already a thread. I didn't see one.

Interestingly, this was in the race for cyclists aged 40-49. I wonder if older athletes are less likely to stand for this nonsense. Anyway, good for them. I hope this spreads to younger cyclists and other sports.

Hey, MummaM said they were nobody's dogsbody in presenting the science links here.
Not their job to, ooh, PRESENT THEIR CASE, no, that would be really stoopid.
I think this person is busy sharpening their barbs and polishing the metal on their troll-ey ahead of another round of 50% insults and 50% reality denial.

I'm just watching videos of "Citizen Of The Year" Mizzy break into houses, steal dogs, tell people they're gonna die, leapfrog over Hassidic Jews, with grown adults shy away from standing up for themselves and confronting his aggressive stances.

And the TRA phenomenon reminds me of the same. A shouty set of individuals who will get right into women's faces, invade their spaces, insult them to their faces and steal their futures, and polite society live up to being polite, waving it all by.

Mizzy over there, TRAs over here.

Nonsense.

I live in hope TheBiology. If they went and read the studies and the experts with alternative views, then maybe we could all have a very interesting discussion.

Catus is correct though in the script that some posters seem to follow.

The assertion: There is scientific consensus about 'x'. The 'majority' of experts believe 'x'.

To the requests for evidence then follows.

The refusal: Use 'google' or I am not doing your homework for you or similar.

The doubling down: I am right, you just don't understand.

The misinformation: this varies depending on the topic but invariably includes 'intersex' (because those who use this script have not once listened to those people they are talking about who are clear that 'intersex' is highly offensive) and sex is a spectrum/not binary. And followed up with 'it is so very complicated'.

Then:

The emotional manipulation: My trans friend....., or this is just like the homophobia of the past or similar.

The ad hom: You are all haters / liars / whatever insult comes to mind (pea brained clowns maybe?)

It is predictable. It is entertaining until the misinformation is brought out. Then that is very harmful if it is not countered with the reality.

Um, facts aren't "trolling". Trans women are women. Fact. Science backed fact.

Do you know the difference between facts and words? "Trans women are women" is a definition not a fact. It can't have a scientific backing unless you add "because" and then we can talk about whether the "because" has a scientific backing or not.

Science has spotted a lot of physical differences between trans women and women when it comes to sporting performance. It's not the case that all the physical differences between men and women vanish with transition, not even after physical transition. That's what the science says - for sporting purposes trans women are not fair competitors against women.

What do you mean by "science"? There is no "science" saying that a man is a woman. There couldn't be, because these are linguistic terms. "Man" means an adult human male and "woman" means an adult human female. Nothing more and nothing less. They are words in the English language, which have a specific meaning, which they have had for centuries. "Science" can't just say that these words have a different meaning. Calling someone a man or a woman is not a judgment, it's just using a term which has a long-since agreed meaning in our language.

Here is an article about Sharron Davies reaction to Heidi Vistisen of Leap Sport.

The crazy thing is, that posters such as maggoth believe this without going to check. And check at original source level.

This might be difficult for posters who have no idea where to start looking and who only ever consume media from one point of view. And when presented with articulate counters, dismiss reading links because ... why, I don't know actually. I can only think it is either because they believe they have superior knowledge / intellect and don't need to read further or it could be that to gain that knowledge would cause a shift in their thinking that they would find causes disruption in their life.

Either way, organisations are doing it too because they are led by people who are ideologically driven rather than evidence based.

This is Vistisen saying complete bollocks in a committee meeting at Scot Gov where verified and accurate information should be given so people can make appropriate policy decisions. Even truths that are uncomfortable to admit rather than bald face lying.

"When asked by Tess White, the Scottish Conservative MSP, how she would strike the balance between trans inclusion, fairness and safety in women’s sport, as biological males have greater strength, Vistisen replied: “I don’t believe that there’s any evidence that this is the case.”"

thetimes.co.ukSharron Davies challenges trans athletes claimsSharron Davies, the Olympic swimming medallist, has condemned remarks made at a Holyrood committee where it was claimed there was no evidence to prove trans-ide

You would laugh if you weren't too busy holding back the tears.
"We believe..."
"I don't know those stats..."
Etc etc.
So, starting off from a religious or superstitious position.
That no amount of data can bend the belief.

It's something when a policy maker has both not seen the data, and then when they hear it, can publically demonstrate their ignorance in literally brushing it aside.

Post truth politics...alive on the Right (Brexit fall out, anti vax, stolen elections etc) and the Left, this a case in point.

Yes, this man sure is causing a lot of problems for women, eh? Shame on him.

Everything isn't - you're perfectly free to go out for an untimed, non-copetotive poodle on your bike whenever you feel like it.

However, competitions do have to be competitive. There's a clue in the name, if you look carefully.

Or even a non-competitive pootle. Poodles optional.

I think the reason I was looking for input from anyone with actual "lived experience" of being a women who has lost to a transgender woman or a transgender woman who has beaten a women in a race, is to hear if the people actually affected have the same feelings that everyone else projects onto them.

Having worked in sports with young people in this situation, eg transgender adolescent male, they do not. The conversation is much less heated, much more consensus, understanding and empathy for women.

The sporting bodies seem to lack the insight and empathy to actually discuss with women and transgender athletes and heat them. Instead, a political and biological abstract debate takes over and, worse still, a bunch of old white men form the policy. The recent British Rowing member survey might be an example where the membership is mostly men and they have just voted on a policy that has no impact on them at all. Women and trans athletes also voted but amongst a sea of male votes.

This thread, as excellent as it is in posting the science, has no "lived experiences" in it.

So, because no poster in this thread (there are posters on this board who have recounted their experiences, you could start a thread actually asking for this) has direct experience, you are what? What point are you attempting to make?

You asked for direct experience. I don't have any. But my child does. But that is not what you asked and I am not about to recount their experience as it is outing. I have had several family members compete as under 18s, one was selected at Olympic level, and I can assure you that not one of them believe that any male should be competing in a sports event categorised for female only participation. So what? Do they not count because they currently don't compete even though their children do?

In fact, there is a great deal of evidence that unfortunately remains anecdotal, about how women athletes feel about this issue. No studies have been released and given the pressure (and the legal agreeements) on women and girls to remain silent, I suspect they are not going to be accurate anyway.

The fact that you asked on one thread, in the middle of it, for only direct evidence is relevant to what? That some of us no longer compete in sports events? Does that mean that I have to join a park run event to be able to have a voice even though I run for exercise?

Why not start a thread and gather evidence from those not on this thread?

But I would also like to know what your point actually is?

Do you think that women, when given the accurate science and assured that it is truthful and not false as activists would have it, stripped of all emotionally manipulative tactics, would vote for male inclusion in competitive female sports?

Suggest you go and read what Tamikka Brents had to say after her fight with Fallon Fox, where her skull was broken.

I would call that a "lived experience".

Tamikka is neither male not white, fwiw.

Nor*

@MN164 -There were a few things that stood out to me in your post.

One of the reasons that I and others post researched guidelines / scientific evidence is to avoid the situation where we are stating just our own opinion or taking the words of another person and assuming that they apply to everyone.

Many female athletes do not feel like they can speak out. Take a completely different scenario - gymnastics in the US - it was not until some brave women spoke out that many others felt that they could also speak. It cost some of them their careers. They felt silenced by the behaviour of those around them and the power that those around them had over their future careers. British cycling is another example of where female athletes felt unable to speak out about behaviours because their place on the team was at risk - or they felt it to be at risk.

Even many amazing, hugely successful female athletes who have got 'nothing' to loose because they have retired, have withdrawn their comments or remained silent because if they speak out, they risk their sponsorship or simply risk being alienated from their friends and colleagues who do not speak out.

Some people who are supportive of males in female sport may not realise the impact of this until it is too late.

In this discussion - who's voices are heard most? The voice of white males.. Why do we know the names of the men who have won prizes in women's events and not the names of the women who won these events in previous years.

Specific lived experiences of women who have lost to males identifying as women..

Riley Gaines, https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/equality-not-elitism/gaslit-into-silence-swimmer-riley-gaines-explains-why-she-spoke-out-against-lia-thomas-and-trans-athletes#:~:text=%27Gaslit%20into%20silence%27%3A%20Swimmer,Lia%20Thomas%20and%20trans%20athletes

Hannah Arensman https://www.outkick.com/cycling-champ-hannah-arensman-retired-trans-athletes-womens-sports/

Taylor Silverman

Tracey Lambrechs https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/females-told-be-quiet-transgender-issue-ex-weightlifter-2021-05-07/

https://nypost.com/2023/05/22/transgender-athlete-claims-2nd-place-in-calif-high-school-track-meet/

How many silenced women are enough? The risk that male competitors will take the place of female competitors affects every single female competitor, regardless as to whether they think it is OK or not. The fact that the risk is there should be enough to put a stop to this practice. We should not need lived experiences, actual negative outcomes when a risk based approach would be enough to show that this is not in the interest of women and it has already agreed at a global level (IOC), that women deserve the right to fair competition and where being male, confers an unfair advantage, their inclusion in the female competition should not be permitted. The only way of proving an unfair advantage is by looking at the science...

Analysing the data and proving or disproving advantage doesn't need lived experience. Understanding the meaning of 'unfair' doesn't need lived experience.

I've never fallen out of a plane. I still know that people who do fall out of them benefit from having a parachute.

Thanks for these examples. I am not in disagreement with the science but I do think the testimony of athletes affected by these policies is often missing from the debate. So I thank you for all those examples given here.

I wasn't trying to dismiss people's opinions, but I was trying to make some realise their opinion and sense of justice is more meaningful if they are actually affected. Being upset on behalf of others may or may not be helpful to those actually affected. That said, I also agree that many athletes cannot speak out, usually women but also transgender for fear of the consequences.

I'm not claiming to have answers, to be "winning the best forum post competition" or to "be right" but asking the question here does inform others reading this.

I was trying to make some realise their opinion and sense of justice is more meaningful if they are actually affected.

Why?

Impartial opinions are likely to be more considered, balanced and fair. Judges have to excuse themselves from cases if they might be biased because of personal involvement; declarations of interest - and exclusion from decision making if you have a personal or financial connection to an issue - are standard throughout politics and policymaking.

If we only spoke out when we were effected by something.. where would be?

but therein lies part of the problem - men are not affected - they don't speak, not all women are affected - they don't speak - we are told it only affects elite sports people so those in grassroots sport, recreational sport, children's sports are not listened to . So we are left with elite athletes who cannot speak. So they don't either..

Therefore we only hear from the winners, who are so happy to be able to compete in their preferred identity, look around them and think everyone else here thinks I deserve to be here while those actually affected have slipped out the back, retired early or never joined the race in the first place because no made them believe that this was a space where women and their views were welcome.

So yeah.. we should all be speaking!!

"but I was trying to make some realise their opinion and sense of justice is more meaningful if they are actually affected."

Oh. I see. Well, I am happy to post to you all the accounts of the women and girls who are affected. I read them regularly.

I am surprised that you have not. Do you not read the news?

They are spread across social media platforms and new papers. I think most posters on this thread are very up to date with the studies, as well as with the opinions of female sportspeople, even those who are behind anonymous profiles speaking out.

"asking the question here does inform others reading this."

Inform them of what? If you are serious that we have neglected to post the opinions of actual women and girls impacted by this, then hey, let's fix that. I will compile a link list of women and girls across the world who are speaking out under their own names.

Because there are many. Only someone who is determined to ignore them will not have seen their accounts of how they feel about what is happening.

I spent years ferrying my daughter around to swimming competitions (not the UK). I know the swimming federation of the country I live in does not adhere to the FINA rules, pathetic cowards they are.
I also know if any male would show up in the changing rooms for women and girls, all girls would leave in a second. I want to avoid them having to give up a sport they love. I am chasing the federation, but as said, pathetic bunch.

I also know a couple of female hockey players that are fumming because one of the teams around here as the new type of 'girl' playing and are now invincible. But they don't dare say anything, because again hockey federation is all 'inclusive'.

Is this enough 'lived experience' for you or is is this one of the 'examples please -no, that is not the right kind of example- no, that is just an incident- why are you so obsessed' kind of thing?

If we only spoke out when we were effected by something.. where would be?

Indeed! Pastor Martin Niemöller told us exactly where we would be, and it isn't good:
https://www.hmd.org.uk/resource/first-they-came-by-pastor-martin-niemoller/

I am just compiling some more examples to add to Chateaux Margaux's list. But seriously, this is not hard. Quite a number of these have been in the news regularly. You should look up

Sharron Davies (Swimming)
Mara Yamauchi (Marathon)
Linda Blade

And you could read this thread that has been recently up near the top of the FWR board

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4731592-elite-sports-people-speaking-up?page=1

However, here are some very current female athletes.

Inga Thompson - just had her sponsorship terminated

https://thecritic.co.uk/inga-thompson-and-the-cost-of-saying-no/?fbclid=IwAR2_o9re7obnYBQ017YlAIIVp-RM-pigB-nII_mbdhGNBScdA5gDNA2MWSU

Women who competed against Laurel Hubbard.

https://twitter.com/WomenReadWomen/status/1422581840955596800?s=20

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=339767315021640

Mary O’Connor MD, Anne Simpson, Carol Brown, Jan Palchikoff, Valerie McClain, and Patricia Spratlen Etem - all female rowers, some of them Olympians.

https://www.rowingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Sex-Difference-USRowing-Transgender-Policy-1.22.2023-with-references-49.pdf

Bethany Hamilton (Surfer)

Amelia Strickler (Shot put)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-11665805/Shot-putter-says-allowing-trans-women-compete-female-category-SCREW-biological-women.html

Karen Long (masters sprinter)

https://www.binary.org.au/australian_world_masters_athletics_champion_speaks_out

Girls speaking out about males in their change room

Cate Campbell (Swimmer)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jun/20/transgender-swimming-ban-cate-campbell-backs-fina-restrictions-in-elite-womens-competition

Madison Kenyon (Swimmer)

Selina Soule, Chelsea Mitchell and Alanna Smith

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/13/transgender-athletes-girls-sports-high-school

Selina Soule went through a huge amount of abuse just as Riley Gaines has.

The reality is that many of these women have received abuse and serious repercussions for their stance.

This has a chilling effect on ALL other women and girls who would speak out. Anyone who has spent time researching this topic would have seen much of this abuse.

In fact, here is what happened to Riley recently.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4779803-riley-gaines-assaulted