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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Female cyclists in podium no-show after being beaten by male cyclist

424 replies

EdgeOfACoin · 22/05/2023 06:47

https://www.outkick.com/cyclists-no-show-post-race-podium-after-biological-male-finishes-1st-in-female-race/

This was in a Colorado - Utah race a couple of days ago. Apologies if there's already a thread. I didn't see one.

Interestingly, this was in the race for cyclists aged 40-49. I wonder if older athletes are less likely to stand for this nonsense. Anyway, good for them. I hope this spreads to younger cyclists and other sports.

Cyclists No Show Post-Race Podium After Biological Male Finishes 1st In Female Race

Trans cyclist Lesley Mumford proudly posted an Instagram photo standing atop the first-place podium. But he was all alone.

https://www.outkick.com/cyclists-no-show-post-race-podium-after-biological-male-finishes-1st-in-female-race

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
MummaMaggoth · 24/05/2023 16:54

TheBiologyStupid · 24/05/2023 16:34

"Experts" who think that sex isn't binary, or who believe that men can change sex, are either ignorant of the science or lying for ideological reasons.

Sex is factually not binary. Intersex people exist. That isn't binary. You can't go 0101012 and call it binary the third option means it is, FACTUALLY, not binary.

MummaMaggoth · 24/05/2023 16:56

SinnerBoy · 24/05/2023 11:25

Well yeah because I'm right.

I'm afraid that's the exact opposite of what you are. I must add that I'm not going to Google for something non-existent; you've made a confident claim, so you surely know something?

How else could you have come to your conclusions? Surely you want to support what you're saying, by means of evidence to show that you are.

Nope you're clearly not going to listen why would I waste my time? I'm happy being right you can choose not to look into it.

RoseslnTheHospital · 24/05/2023 17:00

Fgs intersex people are not a third sex. They have a difference of sexual development that can make it harder (not impossible) to identify their sex. Just because sex differentiation might be complex doesn't mean it isn't binary.

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 17:01

DrBlackbird · 24/05/2023 16:43

Interesting range of evidence that I’ll borrow for our family discussions. Thanks @Helleofabore .

I have lots more on the supposed 'majority of experts in a field agree'. I just didn't want to derail the thread with it. There is now so much winding back on that previous narrative that 'puberty blockers are reversible', which was always a falsity, that I doubt any country will have advice that says that. It, of course, needs to go further and state that puberty blockers are harmful and to list all the potential and becoming all too common, life limiting negative side effects.

And so little is released about the hugely harmful negative side effects of testosterone on the female body. Yet, it is well studied because of the Eastern Bloc female athletes that were subjected to it.

But now each month there is a new paper coming out raising alarms about the 'affirming only' treatments. There is only 'consensus' for those ideologically driven in WPATH. The misinformation has to stop. Clarity and open and very well publicised discussion is needed right now.

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 17:04

MummaMaggoth · 24/05/2023 16:54

Sex is factually not binary. Intersex people exist. That isn't binary. You can't go 0101012 and call it binary the third option means it is, FACTUALLY, not binary.

You are starting to now get offensive. People with differences of sex development have repeatedly asked people to stop politicising their medical conditions and their bodies.

Maybe you are really so ill-informed that you have not seen their requests.

There is NO 'third' option. Not one person on this earth has ever had both working testes and ovaries. They might have some very rare conditions meaning they have streak gonads, but not one has working testes and ovaries.

Just stop spreading misinformation. You seem dangerously ill-informed.

TheBiologyStupid · 24/05/2023 17:06

Here is another. Sorry.

Don't be, @Helleofabore . This thread has just turned into a very useful resource!

PomegranateOfPersephone · 24/05/2023 17:07

A 6 page derail by a time wasting attention seeker 🙄 I skipped it, was it basically “grass is purple because I say it is and all the cleverest people in the world agree with me and if you don’t agree with me and my assertion then you aren’t a clever person”?

I’m not even going to ask if the evidence of scientific consensus was ever produced.

zibzibara · 24/05/2023 17:17

There's a lot of money to be made in a lifelong patient from childhood onwards, no wonder it's being pushed so hard. In the same way that advertisers make people believe they need to buy certain products, gender ideologists are convincing people that they need medical treatment to be their 'authentic selves'.

soddingspiderseason · 24/05/2023 17:25

Sex is factually not binary. Intersex people exist. That isn't binary. You can't go 0101012 and call it binary the third option means it is, FACTUALLY, not binary.

"The Emperor is FACTUALLY not naked; his clothes exist, they are just invisible".

TheBiologyStupid · 24/05/2023 17:39

MummaMaggoth · 24/05/2023 16:54

Sex is factually not binary. Intersex people exist. That isn't binary. You can't go 0101012 and call it binary the third option means it is, FACTUALLY, not binary.

Sex IS binary. The range of species that use sexual reproduction are extremely diverse - including non-vascular plants, insects, molluscs, arachnids, fungi, fish, birds, mammals, and very many more. In all of them, regardless of how different the structures are that produce their sex cells (gametes), only two sexes exist producing precisely two types of gamete, male and female.

"Intersex" is no longer used, precisely because it is inaccurate and misleading, suggesting that individuals with differences of sexual development (DSDs) are somehow between ("inter") the two binary sex categories. They are not - all individuals with DSDs are either male or female.

Furthermore, the existence of hermaphroditic species does NOT disprove the sex binary. In saying that there are two - and only two - sexes, producing two, and only two, types of gametes, male and female, nothing is said or implied that means that a sexually reproducing species must be gonochoric. A hermaphrodite is an individual in which both the male and female reproductive systems exist separately in the same body. But there are still only two sexes - hermaphrodites are NOT a third sex producing a third type of gamete.

And before we get into clownfish, they are just a special subset of hermaphrodite. Instead of producing both male and female gametes simultaneously (like snails and earthworms, which are therefore simultaneous hermaphrodites), clownfish are sequential hermaphrodites. But just as simultaneous hermaphrodites don't disprove, but actually embody, the sex binary, so too do sequential hermaphrodites.

And in just in case it needs saying, any suggestion that clownfish have any relevance to human sexual reproduction is, to use the technical term, a load of human male sperm-producing gonads.

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 17:56

I am just going to post this link considering I am quite sure that maggoth has probably read it.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

Readers, the author has clarified this one. This link is very popular, yet those who post it rarely understand that Claire Ainsworth has clarified.

https://twitter.com/claireainsworth/status/888365994577735680?lang=zh

@ClaireAinsworth
No, not at all. Two sexes, with a continuum of variation in anatomy/physiology.
12:52 PM · Jul 21, 2017

No "third option". That 'third option' assertion is fucking offensive when you think about it. How dare people use other's medical conditions this way? Yet, maggot has done so, easily and readily.

Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic

Biologists now think there is a larger spectrum than just binary female and male

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

endofthelinefinally · 24/05/2023 18:38

Disorders of sexual development are sex specific. There are a limited number and some affect only females and some affect only males.

PorcelinaV · 24/05/2023 19:09

MummaMaggoth · 24/05/2023 16:52

Actually you don't understand it. I'm not saying because an authority says something it's true, I'm saying when the majority of experts in a field agree, mostly, on something, they are the people to listen to because they are the experts in that field. The irony is it's not a text book authority fallacy its a textbook appeal to consensus which is totally valid. Consensus is how we know smoking is bad, would you call it argument from authority that all scientists in the relevant fields say that smoking is bad? No. Because it isn't. Appeal to authority would be something like Richard Dawkins agrees with me so I'm right. That's textbook.

Firstly you are claiming that TWAW is a "fact".

That's an appeal to authority fallacy because it's not even a scientific question. Even if you are correct that it's a good idea to transition and that's the scientific consensus, it doesn't follow that trans-women are really women!

Secondly, appealing to experts is a weak or fallacious argument in conditions like where the experts disagree or the experts may be biased. Trans issues are heavily political and medical professionals or scientists aren't immune from that kind of bias or pressure.

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 19:12

Well well!

Here is a timely article from the DM, along with a link to a paper that never quite got talked about. Hot of the press.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12111455/The-trans-advantage-womens-sports-explained.html

Trans women athletes possess multiple physiological advantages over biological females even after they transition medically, Government-published research suggests.

A major review quietly re-shared by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) last August suggests that early exposure to testosterone means trans women possess at least eight physical and mental attributes that could give them an advantage in sports — even if they make the change relatively early.
Findings showed trans women had greater muscle mass and bone density, which aid strength, power and durability, plus bigger lungs and higher oxygen levels, which help with endurance, as well as increased connections in the brain responsible for spatial awareness, which could help with agility.

The research, by experts from the University of Otago in New Zealand, concluded: 'The former male physiology of trans women athletes provides them with a physiological advantage over the cis-female athlete.' The paper adds: 'The inclusion of trans women in the elite female division needs to be reconsidered for fairness to female-born athletes.'

Despite the scientific evidence, the debate around transgender athletes competing in women's sports continues to rage on. This week, a female high school runner was beaten by a teen boy who identified as a girl — which reignited the argument.

The study is actually a good explainer if you have not seen the arguments before. It is well worth a read.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/#B44-ijerph-19-09103

Transwoman Elite Athletes: Their Extra Percentage Relative to Female Physiology
Alison K Heather, Stacy T. Sims, Academic Editor and Christopher T. Minson, Academic Editor

August 2022

Abstract:

There is increasing debate as to whether transwoman athletes should be included in the elite female competition. Most elite sports are divided into male and female divisions because of the greater athletic performance displayed by males. Without the sex division, females would have little chance of winning because males are faster, stronger, and have greater endurance capacity. Male physiology underpins their better athletic performance including increased muscle mass and strength, stronger bones, different skeletal structure, better adapted cardiorespiratory systems, and early developmental effects on brain networks that wires males to be inherently more competitive and aggressive. Testosterone secreted before birth, postnatally, and then after puberty is the major factor that drives these physiological sex differences, and as adults, testosterone levels are ten to fifteen times higher in males than females. The non-overlapping ranges of testosterone between the sexes has led sports regulators, such as the International Olympic Committee, to use 10 nmol/L testosterone as a sole physiological parameter to divide the male and female sporting divisions. Using testosterone levels as a basis for separating female and male elite athletes is arguably flawed. Male physiology cannot be reformatted by estrogen therapy in transwoman athletes because testosterone has driven permanent effects through early life exposure. This descriptive critical review discusses the inherent male physiological advantages that lead to superior athletic performance and then addresses how estrogen therapy fails to create a female-like physiology in the male. Ultimately, the former male physiology of transwoman athletes provides them with a physiological advantage over the cis-female athlete.

Conclusion:

Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical sex differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.

The current IOC regulations allow transwomen athletes to compete if testosterone levels have been lowered to <10 nmol/L for 12 months prior to competition. While this begins to address the advantageous effects of circulating testosterone on athletic performance, it does not take into account the advantage afforded by testosterone exposure prior to transitioning. The existing data suggests that lowering testosterone to less than 10 nmol/L for 12 months decreases muscle mass but not to biological female levels and despite the decrease in mass, muscle strength can be maintained, especially if concurrently exercising. Estrogen therapy does not affect most of the anatomical structures in the biological male that provide a physiological benefit. Hemoglobin levels are lowered by estrogen therapy, and consequently, maximum aerobic effort may be lower, but this parameter will only be manifested if testosterone levels are suppressed to levels within the biological female range and maintained for extended periods of time. Reported studies show it is difficult to continuously suppress testosterone in transgender women. Given that the percentage difference between medal placings at the elite level is normally less than 1%, there must be confidence that an elite transwoman athlete retains no residual advantage from former testosterone exposure, where the inherent advantage depending on sport could be 10–30%. Current scientific evidence can not provide such assurances and thus, under abiding rulings, the inclusion of transwomen in the elite female division needs to be reconsidered for fairness to female-born athletes.

The 'trans advantage' in women's sports explained

A major review published by the US National Institutes of Health (NIH) last August suggests early exposure to testosterone means trans women have physiological benefits over biological women.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12111455/The-trans-advantage-womens-sports-explained.html

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/05/2023 19:22

Sex is factually not binary. Intersex people exist. That isn't binary. You can't go 0101012 and call it binary the third option means it is, FACTUALLY, not binary.

The mistake you're making, is that "binary" is something which applies to computers, not people. Does it mean that there aren't only two sexes? No. Spoiler: there are only 2, one produces large gametes (ova) and one small ones (sperm) and both are needed in human reproduction:

DrBlackbird · 24/05/2023 20:13

And so little is released about the hugely harmful negative side effects of testosterone on the female body. Yet, it is well studied because of the Eastern Bloc female athletes that were subjected to it

I’d be interested in that research as well @Helleofabore if you have some to hand?

Helleofabore · 24/05/2023 21:15

DrBlackbird · 24/05/2023 20:13

And so little is released about the hugely harmful negative side effects of testosterone on the female body. Yet, it is well studied because of the Eastern Bloc female athletes that were subjected to it

I’d be interested in that research as well @Helleofabore if you have some to hand?

I shall have a dig around. But in the meantime, here are two articles :

https://www.zeit.de/sport/2018-03/doping-ddr-sport-dopingopfer-kinder-folgen-hilfe-english/komplettansicht

https://globalsportmatters.com/health/2019/11/07/ex-east-german-athletes-struggle-with-health-problems-due-to-the-consequences-of-ped-taking/

ZEIT ONLINE | Lesen Sie zeit.de mit Werbung oder im PUR-Abo. Sie haben die Wahl.

https://www.zeit.de/sport/2018-03/doping-ddr-sport-dopingopfer-kinder-folgen-hilfe-english/komplettansicht

FlirtsWithRhinos · 24/05/2023 21:36

MummaMaggoth · 24/05/2023 09:42

Um, facts aren't "trolling". Trans women are women. Fact. Science backed fact.

Of course TWAW if you redefine "woman" to include them.

That's just shifting words around though.

The physical and social differences between male and female people aren't changed one whit by your shifting words around.

All you've done by changing the language is removed women (original sex-based meaning)'s ability to name, challenge and support each other against the inequalities we suffer because of those differences, in favour of giving men (original sex-based meaning) even more of female people's time, resources, bodies and attention than they were already grabbing.

Well done you.

DrBlackbird · 24/05/2023 22:25

Many thanks @Helleofabore

DuesToTheDirt · 24/05/2023 22:46

Um, facts aren't "trolling". Trans women are women. Fact. Science backed fact.

I must get off the internet. The more time I spend on it, the more I find I'm reading absolute bollocks.

zibzibara · 24/05/2023 22:51

Indeed and if you need to redefine "woman" to be included, that just shows that you aren't.

SinnerBoy · 24/05/2023 23:11

Ah, it posted without the title - that's Graham's hierarchy of disagreement.

That's a great little graphic, Binturong

And thanks for all your hard work in providing scientific papers, @Helleofabore

It's certainly not been wasted on most of us.

RealityFan · 24/05/2023 23:28

I know I'm not stating anything original here, but this whole thread is megaton-level trolling from MummaMaggoth and LandOfConfusion.
Proved by every post from them saying "the science is settled" etc. I'm very sorry the decent women in this forum are taunted by these individuals, it represents a microcosm of the real world taunting in toilets, changing rooms, lesbian clubs/dating sites, female sports, book clubs etc, refuges, hospital wards and prisons.

Because the world has so degenerated into ad hominems and non sequiturs, and absolute untruths are permitted by polite society as facts, and superstition promoted over science, and hurt feelings over resilience, the toxic line being promoted here is able to hold and not be dismissed by society.

SinnerBoy · 24/05/2023 23:37

You've put that very well, @RealityFan

RealityFan · 24/05/2023 23:52

SinnerBoy, I've been considering this for a long time. As a man, the skin I have in the game is less the loss of rights or identity being trounced...TRA has no direct bearing on me as a man and my ability to live my life. No woman IDing as a man will ever be able to step on my toes and downgrade me in any way. It's a man's world, and likely always will be.

Where my worldview is absolutely polluted is the crushing of social norms, free speech issues, the implosion of Enlightenment values, and the promotion of The Authentic Self/lived experience over what's best for society/empirical analysis, hurt feelings trumping resilience, so that pure superstition laced with expectancy and true selfishness, now imposes on my airspace, forces me to be involved.

And as I've got involved, I've reappraised how I feel about the world and my previous borderline dismissive attitudes to women's rights, indeed how I feel about men and women (yep, that millenia old chestnut).

And I look at the torrent of toxic trolling from the likes of these two characters on here, and wonder how far we're falling as a civilisation that their posts would be defended, encouraged even, by any number of journalists, politicians, scientists, medics, ethicists, charity workers, social policy makers etc.

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