Page 4 | What rights do transpeople believe they do not have?

sunshinesupermum · 2023-04-17T16:33:18+00:00

Serious question, so I can go back and discuss with my DDs (aged 38 and 42) without a row. I support JKR and they call me a TERF!

Waitwhat23 · 17/04/2023 20:40

ArabeIIaScott · 17/04/2023 18:59

https://www.tumblr.com/edinburghath/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

Gah, I was just about to post that and realised that you had beat me to it! It's the most unhinged thing I've seen from TRA's and that's saying something.

Tinysoxx · 17/04/2023 20:40

LoveQuinnOhDearyMe · 17/04/2023 20:14

OP here’s my take because this is my life.

I have a physical impairment.
This physical impairment means I am not allowed to drive.
This physical impairment means I will not qualify for multiple jobs as it would not be safe.
This physical impairment means I’m having to think hard on the matter of having children as their are implications and things that make it not so straight forward.
There is absolutely nothing I can do to fix this physical impairment. I can “soothe it” so to speak and do things that make daily life manageable and doable, but I can’t fix it.
So what’s the answer?
I could campaign that people like me should have a right to do the jobs I can’t, thus risking the lives of many and others because otherwise it’s not fair on me.
I could say driving is my human right and again risk the lives of everyone on the road every day.

But like everyone with an impairment or a disability, I have to work with the cards I’ve been dealt. This is my physical body and it can do this much and therefore I am prevented from doing several things. I still have the right to earn my money by the means I can and live and do everything else and I have the right to dress how I want and eat and act how I want and so forth.

Thats my argument to trans. If someone wants to live as the opposite sex or non-binary, fine. Our clothes and physical appearance are stereotypes anyway. If a man wants to wear make up, have long hair, where a dress, fine. If someone wants to change their pronouns and name, fine. I’m a woman who hates high heels and would rather be in trainers and much prefers blue to pink and hoodies to cardigans. If someone wants to be known as the opposite gender or sex, fine. Do so. I respect that. Live your life how it makes you happy. I don’t care who people sleep with and have relationships with.

But your physical sex cannot change. Just like my impaired body can’t change, someone trans can never fully change. Therefore a trans rights stop where mine stop, you go where you can physically go. Wear a dress but you go in the male changing room, the male toilets, the male prison, the male shelter. Don’t waste the NHS funding demanding smear tests when you don’t have a bloody vagina. Don’t pretend you understand periods and childbirth when you can never go through them. No you can’t come to breastfeeding groups because they are for women who are breastfeeding. Duh. I’m childless yet a women so I don’t bloody invite myself along to breastfeeding groups!

If you feel you are being deprived by not being allowed to go to Women’s clinics etc then have a think about people who also have things that they can’t join in with due to their physicality that isn’t their choice. It’s not just trans people who are “blocked” from aspects of life. Plenty of people are. Beyond reasonable adjustments, that unfortunately is just how life is.

Thats my view.

That’s how I would argue it OP. And how I have argued it with a non binary acquaintance.

This.

Then talk to your children about the fact that white men that have championed ‘rights’ to the point that policies and laws have changed have since been found guilty of crimes involving women and children.

Oblomov23 · 17/04/2023 20:42

What rights are they being denied?

WickedSerious · 17/04/2023 20:43

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I don't think anyone cares what he wears.

OldCrone · 17/04/2023 20:45

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They can. Dylan can dress how he wants. But he seems to think that dressing in a certain way and acting in a certain way somehow makes him a 'girl'. Which is a pretty weird way for a grown man to think.

TheBiologyStupid · 17/04/2023 20:46

niandraladesand · 17/04/2023 20:13

There were numerous threads on here about Dylan Mulvaney's sponsored instagram posts, how was she infringing on anyone else's rights?

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Someone publicly presenting themselves as ridiculously as Dylan is opening themselves to criticism. Mulvaney has also posted videos about using single-sex facilities for the opposite sex to theirs, thereby infringing women's rights to safety, privacy, and dignity.

mach2 · 17/04/2023 20:47

Dylan has got a gig promoting Nike women's sportswear. I think he has all the rights he needs.

JacquelinePot · 17/04/2023 20:48

As Helen Joyce says, the anti-reality position is not one that people reason themselves into, so it's not one that they can be reasoned out of.

The best thing you can do is ask them what they believe and why. Get them to explain each point at each step. Chances are, they will have all the talking points, but if you can get them to really think about what they're saying you might be able to start getting through to them.

VerveClique · 17/04/2023 20:49

I once did a course to raise awareness of participants around visual impairment.

It was led by an extremely clever and compassionate man who’d been blind all of his life.

I was surprised by his message then when it seems that someone may need help, it’s ok to ask them if they’d like a hand, and if so, also ask how you can best help them. He explained that not all blind or visually-impaired people have the same needs, or like to be helped in the same ways, so it’s best to ask. And it’s contingent upon the blind or visually-impaired person to either politely decline or describe the help that they would like.

If only TRAs could be this well-mannered, realistic and personable in describing their apparent predicament, and what it is that they would like help with in order to resolve it.

TheBiologyStupid · 17/04/2023 20:50

OldCrone · 17/04/2023 20:45

They can. Dylan can dress how he wants. But he seems to think that dressing in a certain way and acting in a certain way somehow makes him a 'girl'. Which is a pretty weird way for a grown man to think.

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Indeed!

lechiffre55 · 17/04/2023 20:59

ArabeIIaScott · 17/04/2023 18:59

https://www.tumblr.com/edinburghath/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

The craziest thing about the trans manifesto is not your initial reaction to the list of crazy demands, it that when you sit back and think about those demands how many of them have pretty much already been achieved.
Just one piece taken at random "We will have universally accessible and freely available hormones & blockers, surgical procedures, and any other relevant treatments and therapies." This has already happened.
I remember a bit from when I first read it a long time ago that said ( to paraphrase ) "We will decide what medical treatment is appropriate not doctors" This too has happened. The doctors do what they are told.
Go back and read it again. Think about each demand. Ask yourself how close to that demand society has bent.
Now tell me it's a crazy document.

PorcelinaV · 17/04/2023 21:02

DadOnIce · 17/04/2023 19:44

They believe they are discriminated against because they are not allowed to call themselves the sex other than the one they were born as. Problem is, nobody can do this (yet). Non-trans people cannot do this either. It is not a discriminatory law if it applies to everyone. They may as well say that they are discriminated against because they can't run red lights or shoplift.

You could make the clear contrast between the very real legal discrimination which gay and lesbian people still faced in the decades after decriminalisation of homosexuality -- e.g. Section 28 (not repealed until the third Labour term), gay men not being able to give blood after the Aids panic, and not being allowed to get married. There's nothing comparable to this which applies to trans people.

They should try being disabled, or being old -- that's where the real discrimination is.

Section 28 just said I think local education authorities couldn't promote homosexuality in schools.

That's not "discrimination" imo, because teachers shouldn't be pushing their own views on children just in general.

They shouldn't be pushing trans activism on children either.

There is supposed to be a duty to political neutrality, and that's a good principle to have in schools, where issues are controversial today. Obviously you don't need to be neutral about something like slavery.

PorcelinaV · 17/04/2023 21:07

waterlego · 17/04/2023 20:04

A lot of TRAs seem to think that trans people are denied access to health care. What they mean, of course, is that trans people can’t always easily get cosmetic surgery on their genitals/hysterectomy/mastectomy/supplies of hormone medication without a long wait and/or a very expensive bill.

This seems reasonable to me given how drastic these ‘treatments’ are and how profound and irreversible the side effects can be. I think it should be pretty hard to access these treatments.

Waiting times for access to mental health services are too long, but that's across the board. People can wait months or years just in general.

Better access to treatment is one area where I agree with trans activists. (Although I'm very skeptical about treatments for under 18.)

waterlego · 17/04/2023 21:09

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Yes, and the rest of us are entitled to draw our own conclusions when adult men choose to dress as ‘girls’.

TiedUpWithABlackVelvetBand · 17/04/2023 21:16

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The disingenuity is seeping out of every letter.

Dylan isn’t just dressing how he wants - fair play to him if it were.

He’s saying he’s a girl, parodying women and girlhood, and looking simperingly at a tampon - of all Godforsaken things - while doing all that. And expecting people with more than half a brain cell to go along with it.

No. The emperor doesn’t have nice new clothes. HE’S naked and we all full well know it.

He deserves every bit of criticism coming his way.

Teentaxidriver · 17/04/2023 21:29

To rename biological women as cis and to take over the word woman. To occupy, own and dominate the very language by which we describe our material reality and to therefore control and subjugate half the population. To make it a criminal offence for women to talk about period pains (hate speech to TWAT) or to force us into a bizarre twilight zone whereby biological women have to commiserate with biological men about periods, sanitary products, breasts, childbirth, breastfeeding and the menopause. The right basically to gaslight us.

Teentaxidriver · 17/04/2023 21:29

TWAW sorry

prob Freudian typo

Teentaxidriver · 17/04/2023 21:31

I will never buy Nike gym clothes or trainers again. I have boycotted Innocent for years. Ditto now as well Budweiser.

Teentaxidriver · 17/04/2023 21:34

Perhaps you could tells your daughters that if they want to call you a terf; the correct term for them is handmaid. Do they know their Atwood?

ArabeIIaScott · 17/04/2023 21:34

WickedSerious · 17/04/2023 20:43

I don't think anyone cares what he wears.

Show quote history

A grown male dressing like a six year old girl?

Cherryblossoms85 · 17/04/2023 21:38

Society defines all wants as needs, and all needs as rights. That has been problematic for some time.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 17/04/2023 21:41

They can. Dylan can dress how he wants. But he seems to think that dressing in a certain way and acting in a certain way somehow makes him a 'girl'. Which is a pretty weird way for a grown man to think.

Exactly. He makes a mockery of women with his behaviour. And sadly some women lap it up. Being a woman isn't a role he or any other man can slip into one day.

AliceMcK · 17/04/2023 21:47

sunshinesupermum · 17/04/2023 19:54

I agree AliceMcK women have been fighting for our rights as long as I can remember and I personally feel we are in danger of losing them. At my age I won't be affected but at Dds ages, they will be.

I have 3 daughters, I want them to grow up without prejudice and to be welcoming to others but not at the expense of their own and other peoples rights, especially women, and especially given what thousands of women have sacrificed to give us women the freedoms and rights we have now.

I know that women like my grandmothers and their mothers before them sacrificed a lot to give each following generations a better life. Both my grandmothers were married to abusive men who battered them daily, they made sure to bring up their daughters to not accept that, but more importantly one grandmother in particular made sure her sons knew how to look after a home and treat women with respect, I’m proud to say my DF was very much a man who never treat any woman as less than what she was and saw taking care of the family home as much his jobs than my mothers.

My DH is the same, he would never dream of assuming a house hold chore was a woman’s job. I remember going through one of my DDs nursery workbooks and thinking hhmmm this is obviously bull, I wasn’t particularly happy with them but it was the icing in the cake as they had obviously made stories up. The book asked questions like who dose the ironing, washing, making tea, all answers mummy. Then there was a story about when my dd got sick and mummy cuddling her and mummy washing her hair. I knew it was utter crap, my DDs have never seen me iron, I think I ironed my eldest uniform the day before she started reception, she’s eleven now, I haven’t touched an iron since, but DH always use to iron his work shirts & kids uniforms pre covid. I’ve bathed my DDs maybe a handful of times in their lives and only when DHs away with work. It’s always been DHs job, it was something he could do when he got home from work when they were babies and we just kept it up. And same with being sick, Im Immune compromised and chronic health issues, if the DDs are sick they call for DH and he keeps them away from me so as not to make me sick. Sometimes I can’t stay away but I only ever give in and cuddle when I know I’m able to spend the next week in bed recovering from what ever they give me.

I feel like we were coming into a world where there was more of an acceptable balance between men and women. Obviously not to where we (women) would want it, but definitely better. I can’t help feeling the whole trans movement is damaging this.

What I don’t understand is what happened to the Me Too movement. It’s not that long since women were standing up for womens rights and the way women had been treated in the Hollywood industry for decades, it was all over the media, now it’s like they have all crawled into a box because of the rights of people like Dillon Mulvaney who is plain and simply making a mockery of woman are more important. I know this isn’t the DM thread but it’s all linked. As I said I’m happy for people to be who they want, just not at the expense of others.

Original poster

sunshinesupermum · 17/04/2023 21:47

Teentaxidriver They know their Atwood. Eldest is a huge fan of her writing!

OP posts:

AliceMcK · 17/04/2023 21:49

LoveQuinnOhDearyMe · 17/04/2023 20:14

OP here’s my take because this is my life.

I have a physical impairment.
This physical impairment means I am not allowed to drive.
This physical impairment means I will not qualify for multiple jobs as it would not be safe.
This physical impairment means I’m having to think hard on the matter of having children as their are implications and things that make it not so straight forward.
There is absolutely nothing I can do to fix this physical impairment. I can “soothe it” so to speak and do things that make daily life manageable and doable, but I can’t fix it.
So what’s the answer?
I could campaign that people like me should have a right to do the jobs I can’t, thus risking the lives of many and others because otherwise it’s not fair on me.
I could say driving is my human right and again risk the lives of everyone on the road every day.

But like everyone with an impairment or a disability, I have to work with the cards I’ve been dealt. This is my physical body and it can do this much and therefore I am prevented from doing several things. I still have the right to earn my money by the means I can and live and do everything else and I have the right to dress how I want and eat and act how I want and so forth.

Thats my argument to trans. If someone wants to live as the opposite sex or non-binary, fine. Our clothes and physical appearance are stereotypes anyway. If a man wants to wear make up, have long hair, where a dress, fine. If someone wants to change their pronouns and name, fine. I’m a woman who hates high heels and would rather be in trainers and much prefers blue to pink and hoodies to cardigans. If someone wants to be known as the opposite gender or sex, fine. Do so. I respect that. Live your life how it makes you happy. I don’t care who people sleep with and have relationships with.

But your physical sex cannot change. Just like my impaired body can’t change, someone trans can never fully change. Therefore a trans rights stop where mine stop, you go where you can physically go. Wear a dress but you go in the male changing room, the male toilets, the male prison, the male shelter. Don’t waste the NHS funding demanding smear tests when you don’t have a bloody vagina. Don’t pretend you understand periods and childbirth when you can never go through them. No you can’t come to breastfeeding groups because they are for women who are breastfeeding. Duh. I’m childless yet a women so I don’t bloody invite myself along to breastfeeding groups!

If you feel you are being deprived by not being allowed to go to Women’s clinics etc then have a think about people who also have things that they can’t join in with due to their physicality that isn’t their choice. It’s not just trans people who are “blocked” from aspects of life. Plenty of people are. Beyond reasonable adjustments, that unfortunately is just how life is.

Thats my view.

That’s how I would argue it OP. And how I have argued it with a non binary acquaintance.

Very well said!