What rights do transpeople believe they do not have?

[sunshinesupermum]

Serious question, so I can go back and discuss with my DDs (aged 38 and 42) without a row. I support JKR and they call me a TERF!

Please tell me he was called out on that. 😑

Well then Ester is tying herself up in knots on multiple levels, as is common in these debates.

Who is feminism for? Is it for people who identify as female, or for people who were observed female at birth?

If Ester believes that feminism is for people who identify as female, why would it include trans men or non binary people who have rejected their femaleness?

If Ester believes that feminism is for people who were observed female at birth, then of course it includes trans men and female non binary people, but it obviously does not include trans women.

To my mind, either feminism includes trans women, or it includes trans men and female non binary people. It cannot include both these groups, because even according to the people who believe in gender identity, a person who was observed female at birth but whose gender identity is male or non binary has nothing in common with a person who was observed male at birth but whose gender identity is female.

If a social justice movement is too broad, trying to be all things to all people, it will ultimately fail to achieve anything for most of them. This is also why the LGB umbrella should not have been extended to include heterosexuals, and the fact that it has been is causing harm to people who are same sex attracted.

So what is the point of Ester's line of questioning? Is it that if feminism does not include trans women, it must include trans men and female non binary people otherwise it is just a figleaf for transphobia?

Fine.

My feminism does include trans men and female non binary people. Not a problem.

Does that mean that feminism should prioritise the wants and needs of trans men and female non binary people over the needs of the rest of the female population, including in situations where this hinders our ability to fight for our own spaces, sports and terminology?

No, it does not. Feminism is for and about female people, including trans men and female non binary people. It is not merely for and about trans men and female non binary people.

Yes, but mainly by the aforementioned dinosaurs on Twitter so he paid no attention.

Personally I don't think it matters.

Many women do not identify as feminists or believe feminism is for them.

It is for them though, and feminists will continue to fight for all women's rights, regardless.

Yes. The feminist issue is the rise in young women wanting to reject their womanhood by seeking to identify out of it.

The feminist issue is looking at why medical and therapeutic professionals have been affirming these women/girls rather than exploring underlying reasons for their gender incongruence.

The feminist issue is looking at how the framing on non-feminine or lesbian women as ‘ must be really trans men ’ is negatively affecting lesbian and non- feminine presenting women, and reinforcing limiting and sexist stereotypes.

The feminist issue is trans men being so indoctrinated by this ideology that they place themselves in danger, such as opting to be in a men’s prison or compete in male contact sports.

So the feminist issue is looking at the underlying misogyny behind gender ideology and how it plays into women/ girls identifying as trans, and how the professionals have so quickly adopted an affirmation model.

Other than that, my impression is that trans men present the biggest problem for gay men, who are now finding trans men are entering their spaces and that gay men are being called transphobic for being same sex attracted.

Am I wrong to feel that @EsterCat has just said "Fuck off you rational bitches"?

Exactly this.

The feminist issue is, why is society saying, "yes dear, you're a man, here's a prescription for testosterone and a referral for a double mastectomy", rather than trying to work out why living as a woman is, or is perceived to be, so utterly shit that large numbers of girls are desperately trying to avoid it.

Other than that, my impression is that trans men present the biggest problem for gay men, who are now finding trans men are entering their spaces and that gay men are being called transphobic for being same sex attracted.

This can’t happen soon enough, IMO.

Lesbians have been dealing with this for years, as we all know.

Once male homosexuals start having to deal with it, maybe there might start to be some pushback.

Because currently, gay males are some of the most vicious, ‘you’re a hateful TRRFy bigot!!!!’ people out there.

Which I just don’t understand, to be honest. Because if gender is The Thing, then there can be no such thing as same-sex attraction. I don’t understand their cognitive dissonance here.

I follow a few LGBs who reject the TQ on FB, Instagram and Twitter and while most of them are women, a few of them are men.

These are the allies we need.

💯% 🎯 my impression, too…….

Personally I welcome the contributions of posters like Ester. Breaks up the echo chamber a bit.

I mean, yes I think it's obvious that a site mainly geared towards women who have had or are trying to have children will attract a lot of women who believe in the reality and importance of biological sex. In that sense, an echo chamber is somewhat inevitable.

But it's always good to get an alternative viewpoint, and Ester expresses herself far more civilly than many people on the opposite side of this debate.

YANBU 😁

It was patronising as fuck

As PPs have said, transmen are women so are less focused on here because they pose less threat than biological males. In case you hadn't noticed, on these boards the discussion is mainly about the dangers posed by males, regardless of how they identify, intruding on women's single-sex services, facilities, organisations, and sports, etc.

FWIW, transmen get very little mention by transgender activists too, and are underrepresented amongst those promoting their ideology, which is so harmful to women.

…because: transactivism (not individual trans people themselves) is a profoundly misogynistic (and homophobic) movement.

@MargotBamborough

On the subject of claims that transw are twice as likely to be the victims of violent assaults, the figures on murders surely give lie to that?

They suffer rates of fewer than one annually.

Murder is the thin end of a wedge, in violent crime, from minor altercations, to ABH, GBH and then murder. Surely then, if there was truly a huge disparity, it would be visible in the crime statistics?

After all, we've seen reports of the huge fuss made with criminal complaints, simply because some unfortunate women have erred, by saying, "Sorry, you have a penis, therefore, you're not a woman," on twitter.

If such non events garner so much attention in the press, why would actual, genuine violence be missed? It defies logic.

No actual official figures on claimed assaults seem to materialise and for me, "someone said on twitter" simply doesn't convince me.

On the trans men question: I think feminism is for all women—even the ones we don't like; even the ones we vehemently disagree with; even the ones who are trying to identify out of female subordination. Some trans men get pregnant and have babies (and can't breastfeed), which I find bizarre (why do something so stereotypically female if you're dysphoric? if you're not dysphoric, why did you have a double mastectomy?)—and I include them too, even though they apparently can't see that it's male exploitation of our reproductive capacity, as a class, that is historically the basis of women's oppression. Women are a sex class, and, whatever they may think, you can't change sex.

Because currently, gay males are some of the most vicious, ‘you’re a hateful TRRFy bigot!!!!’ people out there

Yes. I think this is because men tend to side with and stick up for other men. Nothing tells you that gay men see TW as male like the vitriolic hate they spew at women for not moving over for males who identify as trans. Same goes for men who are TRAs.

I’ve never noticed men, gay or not, en mass getting so het up and emotional about any women’s rights issue after all. So all the rage can’t be because they actually see TWAW. But is because they see them as male.

I do think there is more focus to be given when it comes to how you include transmen into your feminism if you think feminism is for anyone with female reproductive parts, but I don't think me saying that will encourage you to explore it further

Just seen this! @EsterCat If you look at my previous post on this you will see all the ways we do consider trans men as a feminist issue. These are all areas of regular discourse and activism in GC circles. The fact that you have not been reading up on GC discourse to know this, does not mean it’s not happening.

Absolutely this.

If the only women whose rights you care about are the ones with penises, what does that tell us about you?

Murder is the thin end of a wedge, in violent crime, from minor altercations, to ABH, GBH and then murder. Surely then, if there was truly a huge disparity, it would be visible in the crime statistics?

After all, we've seen reports of the huge fuss made with criminal complaints, simply because some unfortunate women have erred, by saying, "Sorry, you have a penis, therefore, you're not a woman," on twitter.

If such non events garner so much attention in the press, why would actual, genuine violence be missed? It defies logic.

That's a very good point, @SinnerBoy.

I have been vilified for saying this on another platform, but I often get the impression that trans activists would be pleased if more trans people were being murdered and assaulted, because they would then have some evidence to back up the claims they are making anyway.

When they talk about this supposed murder epidemic, I say, "Where are the bodies??" and they say there are no reliable statistics about trans people because their murders are recorded and reported under their biological sex and their "dead name".

So I say, "Oh really? So when a trans woman is the perpetrator of a crime, for example, Karen White, or that trans woman convicted of indecent exposure of "her penis" in Teesside, they are reported as female, but when they're murdered, they're reported as male? That seems a bit inconsistent, but I'm sure the trans community knows they are trans, and frankly I would expect trans Twitter to be kicking off about their fallen soldier and imploring us to never forget."

Sometimes I'm told they aren't accurately recorded because the person might not be "out" as trans. Well if you're not "out" as being trans at the time you are murdered, as tragic as your murder is, I'm not sure how it can have had anything to do with you being trans. If your friends and family don't know you're trans, how is your murderer supposed to know?

Because currently, gay males are some of the most vicious, ‘you’re a hateful TRRFy bigot!!!!’ people out there

See I don't see this among my gay friends. Youngish women of my DDs ages (38 and 42) OTOH are like this. It is horrible.

This has turned out to be an informative and interesting thread and thanks to many of you for contributing, in particular MargotBamborough

You're welcome, OP.

For what it's worth, I'm 37 and among my female friends I mostly don't know where people stand. I know my best friend says trans women are women, and really doesn't like me saying that they are male, but she clams up when I ask her what makes them women, or how we are supposed to discuss biological sex. My other best friend is, I suspect, more in line with my own opinions, but doesn't care nearly as much. Another close friend I suspect of being a closeted "TERF", based on a conversation we had about JK Rowling's latest book. But I do find it difficult to talk about this to friends in real life because it's such a contentious subject and I don't want to lose friends over it. I'm hoping all sensible people will gradually move more towards my line of thinking as the true horror of some of this stuff is exposed. Even my TWAW friend has, I think, had some uncomfortable thoughts about prisons and sports in particular. I think it might take her a long time to get there but she probably will eventually.

My younger brother is now openly gender critical on social media.

Also, I don't know enough about your conversations with your daughters to advise, but if you want to talk about single sex spaces I find the best topics to start with are prisons (you can ask them where they stand on the likes of Karen White and Isla Bryson and then ask why they think women's safety hasn't been properly considered) or rape crisis services. You can mention Sarah Summers, who is suing the Survivor's Network for refusing to provide even one single sex group for traumatised women, mention the fact that various trans activists have suggested that if she wants such a service she should fundraise and set one up herself, and then say that JK Rowling has now done exactly that and the same trans activists want to have it shut down. It's helpful to probe their views about why natal women can't have anything just for themselves, even when this would not actually take anything away from existing things which include trans women.

In my experience this is a good place to start in terms of chipping away at the "be kind" narrative.

Yes, let's be kind. Kind is great. But why are we only being kind to some people? Can't we be kind to others too, or does it all have to be on the terms of the first group?

One more thing: if the person you are talking to is reluctant to engage then I wouldn't recommend doing this all in one go.

But if you have a conversation one time about prisons, then rape crisis centres, then maybe next time you mention sports, unless the person is really completely blinkered you will eventually get them to a position where they say that trans women should be treated as women except in certain limited circumstances, such as the ones we have talked about.

If you're really feeling lucky (punk), you can then say, "Well if you don't think trans women should be in women's prisons/rape crisis groups/sports then you don't actually think they are women, do you? You're just saying you do because you think it's important to be kind. But in doing so you end up being unkind to other groups who are negatively affected by this."

That one is a bit of a punch to the gut and might backfire though. It's a doozy if you want to "win" the argument but less good for actually winning hearts and minds.

A gentler approach would be to say, "OK, so if trans women should be treated as women except in certain situations like the ones we talked about before, what does that actually mean? What other situations are there where society actually segregates men from women, and why? Because if it's just about using preferred pronouns and respecting people's right to present as they wish, a lot more people would be on board with that if they knew their own rights and safety had also been taken into consideration."

And then at some point, if you succeed in getting them to acknowledge that trans women shouldn't always be treated as women, you can point out that according to trans activists they would be TERFs, and women are bullied on and offline every day by trans activists for saying exactly the same things they have just said.

Sorry, all kinds of things coming into my head now.

On single sex spaces again.

One objection many people in the TWAW camp have to those on our side of the debate is that by talking about women's safety in toilets and changing rooms and prisons we are implying that all trans people are perverts and paedophiles.

The answer to that is, "No, we know that most trans people aren't perverts or paedophiles. But if you think that a trans woman, who is and looks biologically male, should be allowed to use women's changing rooms in the presence of women and children who are getting changed and that their right to be there shouldn't be questioned, how do you prevent any man who is a pervert or a paedophile from saying he is a trans woman in order to access those spaces? How do you ensure that only women, children and genuine trans women use them?"

There is no good answer to that, because the answer used to be that male people aren't allowed in women's changing rooms and if they try to go in there you scream/run away/call security and have them thrown out. We can no longer do that.

MargotBamborough

So I say, "Oh really? So when a trans woman is the perpetrator of a crime, for example, Karen White, or that trans woman convicted of indecent exposure of "her penis" in Teesside, they are reported as female, but when they're murdered, they're reported as male? That seems a bit inconsistent, but I'm sure the trans community knows they are trans, and frankly I would expect trans Twitter to be kicking off about their fallen soldier and imploring us to never forget."

Yes, much as I sympathise with anybody who has been murdered, I have to agree that they'd be making a lot of noise, if it had actually been a trans person killed.

From what I've seen here and in other fora, the answer to saying: "No, I don't think that all transw are actually perverts," is usually an enraged "Yes you do!" and a refusal to admit that Kardashian, White and the others may be trying it on and that you're hateful for even suggesting it.

Either that, or they do admit that those examples are actually wrong 'uns, but only a tiny minority and it's awful to point out that 48% of transw in prison are there for sexual and violent offences against women and girls. With no "explanation," just a claim that it's transphobic.