Page 14 | What rights do transpeople believe they do not have?

sunshinesupermum · 2023-04-17T16:33:18+00:00

Serious question, so I can go back and discuss with my DDs (aged 38 and 42) without a row. I support JKR and they call me a TERF!

JanesLittleGirl · 21/04/2023 18:44

EsterCat · 21/04/2023 18:33

As I have said a few times already, I'm simply interested in learning more about the view on trans men, not trans women, and how the view on this relates to them and issues they may face.

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I can't speak for anybody else but I can give you my view on transmen in female toilets. Transmen are female and are welcome to use women's toilets. The vast majority wouldn't be mistaken for a man in a million years so nobody would notice (short haired woman in masculine clothing - not uncommon). Even with a beard and male pattern baldness they are unmistakably female. The few that truly appear to be male are more problematic but, since they created the problem, they get to solve it.

Tinysoxx · 21/04/2023 18:47

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 18:18

What if you are taken ill in a completely sealed cubicle? How long until someone finds you?

What if you are using these facilities at a quiet time and the only other person there is a male predator who forces you into a sealed cubicle and rapes you, in the knowledge that he will not be seen by anyone who might enter?

Single sex washrooms with individual cubicles with gaps underneath and above them are safest for women, provided they are genuinely single sex.

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Thank you again @MargotBamborough
You write as sensibly and eloquently as you know who.

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 18:48

EsterCat · 21/04/2023 18:30

Are you suggesting that trans people are responsible for lack of statistics or just that they are reporting the wrong things? We need statistics and details of all involved, yes, but from the people who have access to the information and process said crimes. National Office have probably not considered the need for this but I would hope it is being worked on.

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If they are including things like "misgendering" or "transphobic stickering" as evidence of violence against trans people, and if they request their sex to be falsely recorded as that of the opposite sex in any crime they either commit or suffer, then yes, they absolutely are to blame for the lack of reliable statistics.

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 18:50

Tinysoxx · 21/04/2023 18:47

Thank you again @MargotBamborough
You write as sensibly and eloquently as you know who.

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What a lovely compliment!

JanesLittleGirl · 21/04/2023 18:51

Sorry, submitted too soon.

This also applies for all single sex spaces and services. As to sports, they should be free to complete as women provided that they don't break the anti-doping rules. I would advise against transmen playing contact sports in men's teams as they have female thickness and density bones no matter how masculine they look.

Waitwhat23 · 21/04/2023 18:52

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 18:43

I really don't care if trans people want to have their own sporting categories and competitions. That's their business. Good for them. (Although I did LOL hard when the mother of a non binary athlete competing in a non binary category in a race complained that there ought to be separate categories for AFAB non binary people and AMAB non binary people.)

I don't believe that trans women should be allowed to compete in women's categories in any circumstances. Taking oestrogen does not lower their testosterone to anything like the level of a natal woman and it does not negate the physical advantages of having gone through male puberty.

I do think it is unfair that trans men who are taking testosterone are not allowed to compete in men's categories even though their testosterone will still be far lower than that of a natal man and therefore doesn't put them at a physical advantage.

Obviously trans men who are not on testosterone should be welcome to compete in women's categories.

To me, the fact that trans women get to have their cake and eat it, i.e. they can take hormones and compete against women despite still having a clear physical advantage over their female competitors, whereas trans men have to choose between hormones and sport despite the fact that they don't pose any serious threat to the male athletes even if they are on testosterone is one of the clearest examples of how this ideology only benefits natal males.

I don't wish to be unkind, especially since I know that many of these people are neurodiverse or otherwise vulnerable in other ways, but trans men really do come across like useful idiots in a game which really doesn't benefit them in any way. Literally the only point of trans men is so that when we object to trans women in women's spaces, trans activists can post a picture of someone like Buck Angel and say, "Are you saying you want this person in your toilets?"

It's so fucking dishonest.

But anyway.

The sports issue shows that whatever gender anyone claims to be, however anyone identifies or whatever language they use to describe themselves, it's always the ones who were born with (and probably still have) a penis who get the privilege.

So, no, trans women are not the most vulnerable and marginalised people in society. Not even close. They are an extremely privileged group, who have self identified as an oppressed minority based on nothing more than their own subjective claim to "identify as a woman", who have rights no one else has, and whom nobody dares to say no to.

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Another excellent post from Margot

EsterCat · 21/04/2023 18:53

RoseslnTheHospital · 21/04/2023 18:39

The thing is, every transman is born a girl and is subject to the issues addressed by feminism, pretty much from conception onwards. Hence feminism covers them.

Asking about their specific needs due to their gender identity is not part of feminism, unless you can demonstrate that transmen face additional discrimination for being female whilst having a trans/non binary gender identity. And not just for being female.

Yes, I agree that they are impacted by misogyny and the patriarchy, too. They would face additional discrimination by being a part of a marginalised group on top of the fact of their sex. Intersection is a huge part of feminism as I'm sure you already know.
I didn't mean to dehumanise, apologies if that's how it came across. I am trying to clarify the view of gender critical theory and gender critical feminism as there are many different feminist schools of thought. If you would prefer I refer as radical feminist/feminism I can do so. Though I'm unsure if every radical feminist holds the same thoughts about the same things. Gender critical is a description I've seen a lot of people here using to describe themselves, so I thought it would make sense to do so. It is clear that giving people the right labelling is important even in this community. Understandably. I can't talk about things as though this type of feminism is the only feminism though, as someone else suggested as I'm trying to consider all viewpoints.

EsterCat · 21/04/2023 18:56

JanesLittleGirl · 21/04/2023 18:51

Sorry, submitted too soon.

This also applies for all single sex spaces and services. As to sports, they should be free to complete as women provided that they don't break the anti-doping rules. I would advise against transmen playing contact sports in men's teams as they have female thickness and density bones no matter how masculine they look.

So your solution is transmen stay in women's spaces and sports, despite this being incredibly painful for them? Is there no other solution to their predicament?

lifeturnsonadime · 21/04/2023 18:58

EsterCat · 21/04/2023 18:42

"In some ways I don't think it's for women to solve the problems that trans men might face. They have chosen to reject womanhood."

This is what you said, and I understood it to mean that you don't feel that the issues of trans men are a feminist issue or should be supported by women and they've done that to themselves by being trans. I wasn't intentionally trying to twist anything, just trying to clarify. It sounds like what you're saying in your follow up that you don't have a strong opinion on trans men and you're not interested in their problems either.

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Misrepresenting again. I think you are going for screen shots.

@RoseslnTheHospital sums up my position on this up thread.

EsterCat · 21/04/2023 19:03

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 18:43

I really don't care if trans people want to have their own sporting categories and competitions. That's their business. Good for them. (Although I did LOL hard when the mother of a non binary athlete competing in a non binary category in a race complained that there ought to be separate categories for AFAB non binary people and AMAB non binary people.)

I don't believe that trans women should be allowed to compete in women's categories in any circumstances. Taking oestrogen does not lower their testosterone to anything like the level of a natal woman and it does not negate the physical advantages of having gone through male puberty.

I do think it is unfair that trans men who are taking testosterone are not allowed to compete in men's categories even though their testosterone will still be far lower than that of a natal man and therefore doesn't put them at a physical advantage.

Obviously trans men who are not on testosterone should be welcome to compete in women's categories.

To me, the fact that trans women get to have their cake and eat it, i.e. they can take hormones and compete against women despite still having a clear physical advantage over their female competitors, whereas trans men have to choose between hormones and sport despite the fact that they don't pose any serious threat to the male athletes even if they are on testosterone is one of the clearest examples of how this ideology only benefits natal males.

I don't wish to be unkind, especially since I know that many of these people are neurodiverse or otherwise vulnerable in other ways, but trans men really do come across like useful idiots in a game which really doesn't benefit them in any way. Literally the only point of trans men is so that when we object to trans women in women's spaces, trans activists can post a picture of someone like Buck Angel and say, "Are you saying you want this person in your toilets?"

It's so fucking dishonest.

But anyway.

The sports issue shows that whatever gender anyone claims to be, however anyone identifies or whatever language they use to describe themselves, it's always the ones who were born with (and probably still have) a penis who get the privilege.

So, no, trans women are not the most vulnerable and marginalised people in society. Not even close. They are an extremely privileged group, who have self identified as an oppressed minority based on nothing more than their own subjective claim to "identify as a woman", who have rights no one else has, and whom nobody dares to say no to.

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You are falling back into centering trans women in your answer. I'm asking about trans men only.

"Literally the only point of trans men is so that when we object to trans women in women's spaces, trans activists can post a picture of someone like Buck Angel and say, "Are you saying you want this person in your toilets?"

Do you think that trans men would go through the effort of transitioning to simply make some kind of point?

OldCrone · 21/04/2023 19:09

EsterCat · 21/04/2023 18:33

As I have said a few times already, I'm simply interested in learning more about the view on trans men, not trans women, and how the view on this relates to them and issues they may face.

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My view is that transmen often seem to hate women, to such an extent that they can't bear to be one. I'm thinking of people like Stephen Whittle and Freddy McConnell.

Why should I waste my time having any sort of view on them and the issues they face? They're the ones who don't want to be women. It's up to them to find a solution that works for them.

I do have more sympathy for the girls and very young women who have been caught up in this ideology, but I don't see why women should have to solve this problem for them. The activists should be doing that.

JanesLittleGirl · 21/04/2023 19:09

EsterCat · 21/04/2023 18:56

So your solution is transmen stay in women's spaces and sports, despite this being incredibly painful for them? Is there no other solution to their predicament?

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That is not what I said. I said that they would be welcome in women's spaces, not that they should be forced into them. Acceptance of transmen into men's spaces is a matter for men.

My comments on sports were based on health. The risk of serious injury for someone with a female skeleton playing Rugby against men is colossal. However, playing competitive sports against other women while loaded with testosterone is cheating.

EsterCat · 21/04/2023 19:09

Anyway, I've spent far too long on this forum for one day. Thanks for your engagement. Some people have given some insightful and thoughtful responses. I do think there is more focus to be given when it comes to how you include transmen into your feminism if you think feminism is for anyone with female reproductive parts, but I don't think me saying that will encourage you to explore it further.

Tinysoxx · 21/04/2023 19:10

Re: transmen in toilets. I know a place that’s put tampons in the males as my Dh shot out the men’s and looked at the door, very bewildered then tentatively went back in. He felt uncomfortable seeing at a urinal in front of women he doesn’t know.

The young non binary women at another place have succeeded in getting ‘gender-neutral’ mixed sexed toilets but surprise, surprise, after a few weeks are back to using the women’s.

Tinysoxx · 21/04/2023 19:11

Peeing not seeing!

Delphinium20 · 21/04/2023 19:11

So your solution is transmen stay in women's spaces and sports, despite this being incredibly painful for them? Is there no other solution to their predicament?

Men aren't at risk of transmen being in their spaces and sports. But transmen ARE at risk to be in some male spaces and at particular risk in contact sports and male prisons. I see no issue with playing non-contact mens' sports. But they should expect to rarely make the team and to not be very competitive. They won't be winning much, I fear.

This is a predicament of their own making and I would suggest a solution of healthy therapy so they can learn to accept and hopefully like their bodies.

getafringenotbotox · 21/04/2023 19:19

Theunamedcat · 17/04/2023 18:05

My point is sometimes it's best not to engage because the arguments are unhinged

The best come back on your previous post

whereaw · 21/04/2023 19:24

The whole trans thing is a bit like me identifying as a dog and kicking up a fuss because even though society humours me, and the vet gives me flee treatments and dog treats, people call me a dog and I'm free to act like a dog and do dog things... yet I'm fuming about the fact I'm also not allowed into schools and nursing homes to be petted by people whether they like it or not. And that family who won't adopt me instead of a regular shelter dog? Bigots!

You can call yourself what you like, act how you like and do what you want. You just cannot invade other people's spaces and force them to agree with your delusions.

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 19:26

EsterCat · 21/04/2023 19:03

You are falling back into centering trans women in your answer. I'm asking about trans men only.

"Literally the only point of trans men is so that when we object to trans women in women's spaces, trans activists can post a picture of someone like Buck Angel and say, "Are you saying you want this person in your toilets?"

Do you think that trans men would go through the effort of transitioning to simply make some kind of point?

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I think they transition because they are suffering from some kind of trauma and mistakenly believe that if they identify as a man they can opt out of all the shit that comes with womanhood.

I think they are used as pawns, by male people who want access to spaces and sporting competitions in which male people do not belong.

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 19:30

OldCrone · 21/04/2023 19:09

My view is that transmen often seem to hate women, to such an extent that they can't bear to be one. I'm thinking of people like Stephen Whittle and Freddy McConnell.

Why should I waste my time having any sort of view on them and the issues they face? They're the ones who don't want to be women. It's up to them to find a solution that works for them.

I do have more sympathy for the girls and very young women who have been caught up in this ideology, but I don't see why women should have to solve this problem for them. The activists should be doing that.

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I agree with you about the likes of Freddy McConnell.

But I think we need to keep a light on for all the young girls identifying as trans or non binary so they know that they will be welcomed back by women if ever they decide it was a mistake.

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 19:50

I also think that the very specific challenges faced by detransitioned women will become a major feminist issue in years to come.

The current explosion of young women and girls wanting to transition and damaging their bodies in irreversible ways without undergoing proper counselling is a serious medical scandal. However they identify, they are, always have been and always will be, girls and women. They have been exploited by a deeply misogynist ideology, aided and abetted by the political establishment and certain sectors of the medical profession and pharmaceutical industry.

They are included in my feminism now, and they will certainly be included in my feminism in the future, when many of them will deeply regret transitioning.

GailBlancheViola · 21/04/2023 20:03

and whom nobody dares to say no to.

And the reason nobody dares say no to them is because they are MALE and males are always, always put above females. you only need to read the Hansard record of the discussions before the GRA was enacted, they knew all that is happening now would happen and they didn't give a shiny shit. All the women trans allies are colluding in pushing a Males Rights and Privileges Agenda, they are being used as useful idiots and if they think for one minute they won't be dismissed and discarded once the men have got their way they are utterly delusional. The men pushing this agenda care not one jot for women, not any women, they view all of us with the same contempt.

OldCrone · 21/04/2023 20:03

EsterCat · 21/04/2023 19:09

Anyway, I've spent far too long on this forum for one day. Thanks for your engagement. Some people have given some insightful and thoughtful responses. I do think there is more focus to be given when it comes to how you include transmen into your feminism if you think feminism is for anyone with female reproductive parts, but I don't think me saying that will encourage you to explore it further.

Do transmen want to be included in feminism? If they don't think of themselves as women, and don't want to be women, surely they don't think that feminism is anything to do with them.

RoseslnTheHospital · 21/04/2023 20:14

I think EsterCat was trying to demonstrate that "the GC" are being inconsistent or illogical by not centring transmen when discussing gender ideology. Or perhaps trying to suggest that by wanting single sex spaces that this would be harmful and dangerous for transmen

For, if EsterCat is fully on board with gender ideology, for her, transmen have always been boys and men, and surely would believe that feminism is not for boys and men, including those with a trans identity.

MargotBamborough · 21/04/2023 20:20

GailBlancheViola · 21/04/2023 20:03

and whom nobody dares to say no to.

And the reason nobody dares say no to them is because they are MALE and males are always, always put above females. you only need to read the Hansard record of the discussions before the GRA was enacted, they knew all that is happening now would happen and they didn't give a shiny shit. All the women trans allies are colluding in pushing a Males Rights and Privileges Agenda, they are being used as useful idiots and if they think for one minute they won't be dismissed and discarded once the men have got their way they are utterly delusional. The men pushing this agenda care not one jot for women, not any women, they view all of us with the same contempt.

Yep. Special shout out to David Lammy, who gave an impassioned speech about the importance of male aristocrats not losing their inheritance either by changing their own legal sex to female or by their older sister changing her legal sex to male, but neglected to say anything about the importance of protecting vulnerable female prisoners, who then later described women who want and need single sex spaces as "dinosaurs who hoard rights".

Every time I reflect on whether there is anything that could persuade me to vote Labour, his face pops into my head.