Would you ever consider a transman a man?

[Sidaway]

Parallel question to this really:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4782092-would-you-ever-consider-a-transwoman-a-woman

Would the straight women here consider a trans-identified female, who "passed" really well, as a romantic/sexual partner?

And for the lesbian women here, would that "passing" be a turn-off?

No, it's very extreme surgery with exceptionally poor outcomes and fortunately very few transmen have it done. If I ruled the world it would be banned. Utterly barbaric.

No

I'm a female homosexual and find women attractive regardless of presentation, I'm attracted to biologically female people, not femininity. Some very unfeminine women are fantastically attractive to me. Males really aren't, regardless of how pretty or how feminine. (Still staggered at India Willoughby's recent tweet that Sharron Davies is trans and not a woman because not as pretty as Dylan Mulvaney....ffs.)

Passing.. ? Well I've known a lovely TM complete with full beard. But the hips, the walk, the smile, the eyes, the social skills, the way they interact with people - I see a woman, not a man.

What I wouldn't find at all attractive was the rejection of femalehood and of other women. Too often I find a lot of sexism involved, I've known TM who believe they are escaping a powerless group into a more powerful one and the sexism follows it: women are inferior. And that's phenomenally unattractive in any prospective partner of either sex.

I thought he passed completely until I saw a picture of him next to other people.

No.

They're not men. Apart from a few, most I see are, after a quick first glance, clearly not male. Especially when they move.

No, I would not consider them as a partner. I like men. They're not men.

I think most, if not all, transition for very different reasons than males do, trauma being one. For that, they have my sympathy, but no, they're not men. Men are adult human males.

No - because they are a transman.

No.

Also true for me, apart from the feminist shame. I realise you're joking but, in these peculiar times, it's probably worth stating that female bodies do what female bodies do - including, in many or most cases, having a primary sexual response to certain male bodies.

I'm really glad you mentioned smell/pheromones! I don't know how a person's scent would be affected by taking unhealthy amounts of androgens. I suspect it still wouldn't trigger the 'man' response. I've never felt a man using anabolic steroids to be extra male and, when I lived in a place with a high proportion of female-identifying men, they smelt wrong to me: sometimes my instincts just shrieked "too much oestrogen!" Mostly it was more like "this is a male trying to be female. Huh."

Two million years of sexually-reproducing evolution have refined our instincts beyond current medical capabilities, but I don't know why so many adults seem not to be aware of this ability. Men in particular seem a bit stupid in this respect (it led to many amusing scenes in those days).

Sorry for the tangent, @Sidaway. My reply to your question is word for word what I wrote on the other thread, just swap the sexes round. (It was no, obviously.)

Except the attitudes and self-confidence of butch women and trans men could not be further apart!

A butch woman being who is she, not giving a fuck is incredibly attractive.

A trans identified woman rejecting womanhood and trying to be a man would, at best, get my sympathy and at worst contempt

How can any one who hasn’t got a penis ‘ pass’ as a man in a male/ female sexual relationship? It’s just factually and physically impossible. The manufactured ‘penis’ made from a bit of arm flesh don’t function in the same way as the the real …thing.

Op, what a ridiculous question. Of course a woman cannot become a man!!!

Just clicked on your link.
As a straight woman, if a female had transitioned really young how would I even know?
I'm attracted to masculinity.
So I can't say I would never be attracted to a trans man as I just don't know.

So I can't say I would never be attracted to a trans man as I just don't know.

Mate, I can say I wouldn't.
I often feel attracted to women. We're fed such a constant diet of beautiful women as 'sexy', I seriously doubt whether any of us are completely free of seeing women through male eyes. And I like women more than men, generally speaking.
But when I envisage having sex with a woman I find attractive ...
Nothing happens.
I am not sexually incentivised by vulvas.
My body really loves a well-formed penis!

if a female had transitioned really young how would I even know?
Well a female who transitioned before puberty would be really fucking small.
How many five foot men do you see?

One of my (female) friends comes from tall parents and was 5'9" by the time she was 12 and got another inch and a half over the next few years.

She was subject to sexist bullying all the time due to being "too tall" to be a real girl. She might well have been convinced that the bodies were right if she had been growing up today. So tall trans men do exist - and I also have a male friend who is 4'9" - obviously both these are outliers on the very different continuums of possible heights for their sex but the overlap is huge.

Transitioning in either direction before puberty is abusive to the child and should never happen. The rules for the general way that trans people are included and welcomed as part of society without discrimination but also without requiring those of us who believe in physical reality to abandon our beliefs and cheerlead for magic pixie dust gender essence should not be based on the status of the victims of those crimes.

Your 4 ft 9 male friend isn't an 'outlier', he's a Little Person (or whatever term he prefers to use).

No, they are still biologically female no matter how they present and I'm just not attracted to women at all.

Do they have a functioning penis? Kind of important for an intimate relationship and for making babies.

Op, even your question as to whether we 'consider' a woman to be a man... there's nothing to consider - it's factual. Either a man or a woman based on their chromosomes

Mate, I can say I wouldn't. I often feel attracted to women. We're fed such a constant diet of beautiful women as 'sexy', I seriously doubt whether any of us are completely free of seeing women through male eyes.

Good point. Imo women's female attributes make them attractive and men's male attributes make them attractive. I would find a man presenting as a woman or a woman presenting as a man equally unattractive before even getting to the point of genitals being involved in the equation. And I don't just mean presenting as in clothes - for example some men could carry off wearing a skirt while very much still presenting as a man.

Oh 😂😂 I guffawed!!

Well, there’s probably more evidence on ‘t internet but Madonna wins

As a heterosexual woman I’m only interested in dating heterosexual men. I want to have more children so actually at this point in life I’m only interested in dating fertile men who also want kids. And just to clarify when I say men I mean sex not gender. It’s really not transphobic to have no interest in dating transgender individuals. Sex, dating and relationships are not equal opportunity enterprises.
Generally I only like tall men with broad shoulders and narrow hips so I don’t I’d find a transman attractive even if they passed well enough that I couldn’t tell immediately that they were trans. So it seems unlikely to be a conversation I’ll ever need to have. The ´do you want kids or are you saying that to get dates’ conversation on the other hand….

@Dassams Yes it IS a ridiculous question - that's why I asked it - to shine a light on how ridiculous this all is.

Another reason was to compare our answers to what I see on Twitter from gay men towards the "boxer ceiling". Which is very much "sorry just don't fancy you, because I can tell you're female".

Looks like the majority "straight" response here is very similar. Interesting to hear from lesbians that the turn-off is not so much physical as emotional, towards someone rejecting their own womanhood.

It's so sad that young girls are doing this before they are mature enough to experience and know how adult sexuality works. I think Allison Bailey said something similar - "girls are removing breasts that have never known a lover's caress" - which got mis-construed by the TRAs because they have no subtlety. WE all knew what she meant...

Those i know are very young, 17-20. So as I'm in my 50s it's hard not to see them really as kids. One does pass much better than the others and I think the height does have an impact there (6ft by the age of 16). But he looks like a gangly androgynous teenager rather than a MAN as such.

I've no doubt that I could theoretically see a transman as a man, probably in a professional context if I met them after transition. But I might struggle - it seems possible that being bisexual makes it slightly more difficult - I'm attracted to specific different things in men and women and I notice things that are too structural to change.

I see those I knew as little girls for years as women. And I find it difficult to be happy for them, I'm sad that they felt the need to do this.

I only know one age 16/17 and she actually makes me cringe. She's very short my height and a bit chubby (like me). She is the sister of friends of friends of my oldest son who are a year or two older. She tries to hang around with them at BBQs etc and it really is painful to watch. They are nothing alike and the boys ignore her. She tries to talk in a very stereotypical male way and walks around being surly and aggressive. It makes me sad as, although it is supposed to be a big secret, I know she was sexually abused aka repeatedly raped at age 13/14 by an older boy, and she had to go through a court case. She was a lesbian from then and now identifying as trans. Her arms are covered in scars. Her parents affirm it all and laugh it all off but really imo they should have got her professional help and counselling after the court case (they didn't and are in denial about how bad it was, despite the prosecution, because they were busy partying and didn't notice what was going on). I wonder how many trans identifying young girls have a similar history?

And no, I don't consider her a man. I consider her a traumatised young girl.