Would you ever consider a transman a man?

[Sidaway]

Parallel question to this really:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4782092-would-you-ever-consider-a-transwoman-a-woman

Would the straight women here consider a trans-identified female, who "passed" really well, as a romantic/sexual partner?

And for the lesbian women here, would that "passing" be a turn-off?

No. Because they're not.
There's a trans man that pops up on my facebook feed sometimes, they are a bodybuilder of some kind and have had the euphemistic "bottom surgery".
This person is clearly in love with themselves as a "man" and forever posting selfies of themselves broodily looking into the camera.
But what really shows the delusion is that they posted something along the lines of "when you wake up in the morning and you have an erection" type post, looking down at themselves and smirking saucily into the camera etc.

Now, anyone who know anything about FTM "bottom" surgery is that the grafted flesh does not have spontaneous erections like biological males. There is a pump inside the graft, which is inflated via a saline bag in the "testicle" that fills the flesh tube with saline to make it semi-hard. It takes physically pumping the saline reservoir to fill the chamber.
NO trans man is getting spontaneous morning erections, they're not ejaculating, they're not feeling anything at all in that grafted tissue most likely.

To gaslight people into believing their body is just like any other man is ridiculous. They are fooling people, particularly their audience of gender confused youngsters, that there is some kind of surgery that will make you a fully sexually functioning male with full capacity for sexual feeling and normal function. There isn't. They are either knowingly lying and deceptive, or they believe their own delusion so deeply that they are ill.
They are a women with a grafted tube of flesh. It's not a penis.
They're not men.
And before anyone says it, men without penises are still men.

But women are not.

Well first, it's not pretend.

Second, trans people self-harm because

a) the vast majority of them are denied care, which causes intense distress
b) all trans people live with prejudice, harassment and the constant threat of extreme violence (most of it sexual) which results in exhausting hypervigilance and intense misery. (Doesn't stop them being trans though, which tells you how vital it is to their wellbeing)
c) self-harm is sadly very common as there is almost no MH care for abuse- something trans kids suffer just as much as cis

Third...what on earth are you doing examining photos of strangers?! Being thiat obsessed with a tiny minority is deeply unhealthy behaviour.

Its not pretend? You think people actually become the opposite sex?

What care are trans people being denied?

Men do not need female specific care.
Females do not need male specific care.

So specifically, what is being denied?

Are you talking about puberty blockers and hormones for children?

Of course it’s pretend. 🙄🙄Transmen are females going to extreme lengths to pretend to be males. They cannot ever be male.

It’s very clear that trans is an extension of previous self harm. Imagine thinking that people that are calling that out are the problem rather than the people facilitating it. THEY put the photos out there, not us.

I see we've pivoted, since the homophobia bit was not working.

This is all true. I genuinely don't understand how people can delude themselves when faced with material reality.
The same goes for TW and their pseudo vaginas.
A real vagina and vulva is a beautiful thing. The pseudo version is just a tube of inverted skin. It has no vaginal muscles, smell, taste or silky feel and yet some TW insist its like the real thing 😂

Yeah me too. The 'have you even met any trans people, you need to get out more', etc.

It really pisses me off that homosexuality, specifically, is so targeted. It has to be, of course, because it's the ultimate test.

It's the most fundamental 'women only' situation there is.

It really does speak about men in general, this ideology in particular, and of course, some women, that the delusion is so profound, they have to constantly take it to the extremes to get it rubber stamped.

nothing else is good enough.

I was reading about a trans identifying man who said he didn't even like dating bisexual women. Because he could never be certain which part of their sexuality was engaged when having sex with him. Was it the part who liked women or the part who liked men.

The dominance aspect of it all is paramount.

Well first, it's not pretend.

What else can it be? It’s not real.

Yes, it’s so weird. As though they don’t understand the reality of sex or sexual attraction at all.

And it’s difficult to comprehend how anyone could find a fake penis remotely attractive, if they’ve encountered a real one.

Third...what on earth are you doing examining photos of strangers?! Being thiat obsessed with a tiny minority is deeply unhealthy behaviour.

How dare you look at photos that people have posted online for strangers to look at!

As though they don’t understand the reality of sex or sexual attraction at all.

I always assume individuals who speak like that are in fact some kind of bisexual, even if they haven't realised it themselves yet. If you're attracted to all kinds of bodies but a particular kind of look/personality, it must be hard to conceive of other people's sexualities which do discriminate.

(and I do understand that not all bisexuals would be attracted to someone trying to fake being a sex they aren't either, but that is I assume more a case of sex acceptable, taste in plastic surgery off-putting)

I'm reasonably sure that bisexual people still prefer a proper penis and a proper vagina/vulva instead of a pseudo version.

This.

And the depersonalising aspect.

Accessing one of the chosen woman in the chosen way is the goal. Making use of her body for that perfect thrill, like she's a rollercoaster to experience, or some kind of award to win.

What a really awful way to treat women.

I agree. I think the people who don’t get the difference are asexual in some way.

I understand this by thinking about religion. I don’t get religion at all. I can’t imagine belief in a deity. I think there’s something similar going on on in those who don’t get sexuality - they just don’t feel it. So they interpret liking somebody - their personality and looks, because there are socially defined attractions about those - as sexual attraction, when it actually isn’t. Of course, it doesn’t stop them procreating as necessary, and possibly improves long term relationships, as they’re less likely to stray (until perhaps someone else triggers genuine sexual attraction in them).

That is a very interesting theory !!

Newsflash: for many people, sexuality and gender are both fluid, and saying that doesn't negate anyone's identity.

Lots of people like to be defined, many don't.

As for Maga, right 😁 Cishet people are the minority in all generations of my family and my mum attended Pride marches in the 70s, but carry on. I'm not bothered by ridiculous comparisons like that.

I'm literally replying to the thread, which is about whether I'd be attracted to a trans man. And I've never read Heyer. It''m just describing what I like in men and trying not to be too serious about it :)

I'm sorry your worldview's so narrow that you have to classify people like this. Shades of Victorian naturalism.

Lots of trans people are gay, lots are straight, others are bi, pan, ace.

My son is trans, and isn't attracted to women at all. He is therefore a gay trans guy, not a lesbian.

I'm afraid people don't fit into neat categories. Human beings are much more complicated than you describe, so perhaps dictating how they're allowed to identify is a pointless waste of time?

Much like me, the boy's opinion on sexuality is "who knows, maybe one day" because life is full of surprises.

Cishet people

How tiresome.

Ummm no. If your “son” is a female, and attracted to men, she’s a straight girl. That’s that homophobia right there. Stating a gay man is anything but a male homosexual is blatant homophobia. Do better.

No, they're really not. Attraction is about compatability, trust, charisma and shared interests. Appearance is often the least of it.

There was a beautiful article in the press a few years back written by a woman who'd unexpectedly fallen in love with another woman. Both weren't young, and hadn't any experience of sex with women.

The description of how, trusting and living each other, they had simply worked this out by going to bed was one of the most romantic, sincere things I have ever read. It moved me quite profoundly (no.details were given, which made it even better - the focus on their feelings was absolutely right).

None of us know what the future will bring. Yes, we all have preferences and often a very set orientation, but life can throw unexpected people in your path.

So I only think I'm gay and one day a man will appear whose magic penis will change my life.

Yeah.

But gender stuff is absolutely real and those deeply held inner feels must be respected.

What care are trans people denied? Evidence?

Any evidence that 'all' trans people 'live with prejudice, harassment and the constant threat of extreme violence' - there are plenty of examples of trans people threatening extreme violence against women, but could you show the crime stats that support the actual reality of any of these things?

The issue of hypervigilance is a good one to bring up, I've brought it up myself in the past as it is a striking aspect of the trans rights movement - keeping trans people in a constant state of fear about things like 'genocide' or 'literal violence' seems to be a tactic of some sort, but it comes from within the trans community, not from outside.

All children who experience abuse should be supported, and that support should be neutral and objective and fact-based, and should not encourage them into a life of still further problems, like 'born in the wrong body' or 'gendered soul' or puberty blockers or surgery or hormones - if you've been abused, you have enough problems, believe me, without adults trying to impose identities on you when you are at your most vulnerable.

Um, no. He's trans, and gay.

Homophobia is fear and hatred of gay people.

Co-opting and weaponising the term to attack trans people could be described as homophobic though.

Why on earth do you care, anyway? When it comes to sex, the only thing that ever matters is consent. Everything else - how people have sex, and how they identify while having it - is an entirely personal affair.

Categorising humanity is a very odd way to spend a bank holiday. Live and let love, and stop seeing trans people as a conspiracy. They're perfectly normal.

And on that note, I'm off to hug my (probably highly wary, I've been doing it since they came home) student sons.

Bye Mumsnetters, til the next time. Have a happy Easter. Cheers to those who were kind

• and to the guy who said he wasn't charismatic and was boring: whoever told you that had no right, so don't ever describe yourself that way again please. Laters xx