Would you ever consider a transman a man?

[Sidaway]

Parallel question to this really:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4782092-would-you-ever-consider-a-transwoman-a-woman

Would the straight women here consider a trans-identified female, who "passed" really well, as a romantic/sexual partner?

And for the lesbian women here, would that "passing" be a turn-off?

Sorry but your homophobia is disgusting on this thread. It’s absolutely abhorrent that you are trying to deny that homosexuality exists and that gay man should accept females into their dating pool. No gay man is attracted to females. They date men. Smacks very much of the conversion talk of the 80s to me.

Shouting "homophobia!" at me regardless of what I write is a bit odd, man.

I'm mostly chatting about my weakness for coats & eyebrows at this point 😁

Straight women are attracted by

Define “straight women”.

'appearance has far less to do with attraction than charisma.'

Well, thats a strange assertion to make!

'Charisma' always makes me think of hypnotists or salesmen.

Most people are attracted primarily and initially on the basis of sex. Its the most basic criteria, after 'alive'. Which is why people specify it first in relevant situations.

Biological sex is absolutely fundamental to sexual attraction. For bi people, too.

We aren't formless miasmas wearing clothing. We aren't Ken or Barbie dolls.

We are mammals; male or female. The species is perpetuated by sexual reproduction, its pretty unsurprising that we learn to classify by sex for that reason alone, before we even get into all the other reasons we learn to differentiate between the sexes.

How is it we've got to 2026 and this most basic of simple fact has become something that people are coy about?

I suppose humans have long been able to confuse themselves with their big overcomplex brains.

You have a really strange way of describing how your attraction feels to you, very dashing and debonaire I might say. Stuck a bit in Georgette Heyer.

But maybe open your eyes a bit and stop pushing your feelings and opinions on others. You might see charisma as the main reason to be attracted to other people but other people are saying their attraction is based on the sex of others. That type of attraction is protected by law. You stating that that type of attraction shouldn't exist is textbook homophobia. So please learn from this as they say and stop it.

Transmen are women who identify as men. They are not nor ever will be male people. Straight women will not be attracted to them. Gay men will not be attracted to them. Bi people and lesbians might be attracted to them, who knows?

No. Because they’re not.

Absolutely not.
It doesn't matter how much surgery etc a man has, nothing will change the fact that every cell in his body has XY chromosomes.
And who gets to decide what a 'pass' looks like?

Nah mate. Youre just as bad as those MAGA dudes claiming lesbians “just haven’t met the right men yet”. You’re the one claiming gay men are attracted to women. So denying their homosexuality. If a man is attracted to women…. news flash, he’s not gay.

The gist of the argument seems to be: people are attracted to people, not sexes, no one can say, even homosexuals, that they wouldn't be attracted to someone regardless of sex.

It is literally telling lesbians that they aren't lesbian, they just haven't met the right man yet. ie that they are bisexuals in denial. This is the homophobia of not accepting people's right to name a sex based sexuality or the reality of it for themselves, because of a wish for everyone to at least perform a belief that sex isn't a thing, it's all and only about gender.

What am I misunderstanding?

I have many very lovely friends who are men. I promise you I've been around the block long enough now to be absolutely sure that there is not one in a male sexed body that I am ever going to want to have sex with. My orientation is entirely towards women. How said women wish to dress and present is irrelevant to this. How people who identify as T and Q feel about my orientation and how they would prefer me to reframe it is equally irrelevant.

Its a strange mixture of coy aversion to basic facts (people do care about the bodies of people they are attracted to, very much) and an assumption that women here are too boring and naive to understand sexualities and gender theory.

I reckon the genderists have bought their own bullshit in many cases. They genuinely think they have us pegged (no pun intended) as rightwing Xtian fundamentalists in non ironic twinset and pearls.

Which is fine. 😎

Are you really trying to excuse self harm by giving another example of self harm?!??! There have been concerns about the extreme lengths ballerinas go to to make their bodies “fit” for decades. How can you not see that trans is just more of the same self harm?!

I agree with all this, Ophelia.

I recognise in TPA's post a kind of free love/pansexual/heeeyyyy love is love man✌which is OK for people who feel that way.

The point is, though, we don't. We know ourselves. We know who we are attracted to. It's not difficult - we know that it's a fact that our sexuality is such that it does not involve being attracted to men - there may be men we like, and as I've said before I sometimes admire a man for his looks or his presence or maybe even his eyebrows, or who knows - his coat? 😄

It's OK until people tell us that our lesbian sexuality is just a passing fancy - on Monday we are solely attracted to women, on Tuesday we might meet Mr Right and hey presto! we aren't lesbians any more.
Or until we're told that we are transphobic bigots if we refuse to accept trans-IDing men as women like us, and therefore as potential sex partners.

That's where it stops being heeeyyyy! love is love man✌ and becomes offensive to lesbians.

All these rights us women thought we had won, and were safely ours - all it needed was some very loud men making demands backed up by threats of violence, and those rights start to look very iffy.
Who'd'a thought we'd be defending our right to be lesbian, to define our own sexuality, in 2026??

The story of transparent's child's life is starting to sound rather sad. Of all the things to go into when you don't enjoy femininity, ballet is quite the pick.

If I worked with/knew a trans man I would call them by their chosen name etc and try and go along with it at least to their face.

Would I date/have a sexual relationship with a trans man? No of course not because a trans man is female and I'm not gay.

I find men sexually attractive. My attraction is inate.

IMO this area is the one where the whole trans argument really falls down because 99% of straight people would not consider dating a trans person simply because they have an inate attraction to the opposite sex.

No-one can change sex so no.

free love/pansexual/heeeyyyy love is love man✌which is OK

Well, until your kind of love, or your inclusion and access needs, or your identity starts to clash with the agenda of gender ideology. Then it's not only not ok, you start getting flat out intolerance that makes more socially conservative people look incredibly open minded by comparison. The hippy bit is no more than just another identity mask, very thin and neither generalised nor reciprocal, nor based on any actual values, just quite enjoying the vibe. In useful parts.

Actual homosexuality is apparently not an ok kind of love to some. And whatever. Homophobia's nothing new. I think it's the hypocrisy that is more annoying, the performative identity of being so much better/more open minded and modern than anyone else while actually being incredibly old school prejudiced and regressive. But it's not like anyone who is homosexual needs other people to 'get it' or approve. Validation not required.

No.

No I do not consider them men. I would consider one as a sexual partner but I am bi so that probably doesn't mean much!

I'm talking about the sexist medical establishment there, love.

Being trans is normal.

It is normal.

Living as your true self is not self-harm, it is self-care.

How come 'living as your true self' requires other.people to pretend to believe you when you say you're the opposite sex?

'Stealthing' 'passing' - all just looks like lying to me.

No. It’s not normal to pretend you’re the opposite sex and undergo extreme body modification. Love 🙄 In all these photos of the poor girls you see the self harm scars from cutting. It’s so clearly an extension of previous self harm.

I saw a sticker once about ‘trans’ being their true selves. OH was with me and just muttered that it was the opposite really.

It cannot be your true self, to deny (or lie about) who you are. Some may bother to cosmetically modify their outward appearance as a nod to a simulacrum or ersatz version of the other sex. The one which you are not, and never will be. Mind you, some dress up might be for reasons of ‘sexual thrills’ like that Noem fellow with grotesque balloon breasts and his tight pink hot pants. His true self was getting all the male thrills from his version of what he his idea of a woman looks like.

Mind you, most men who claim to be women and access women’s and girl’s spaces just say they can because they are women if they say so. And what can women and girls do about it, eh? You think about these men ‘we see your ‘true selves alright’. That is why most women want them to have to stay the eff out.

Do I need to add ‘pet’ or ‘hen’ there somewhere? Or ‘cock’ a la Bet Lynch in Corrie?