Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would you ever consider a transman a man?

455 replies

Sidaway · 11/04/2023 14:57

Parallel question to this really:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4782092-would-you-ever-consider-a-transwoman-a-woman

Would the straight women here consider a trans-identified female, who "passed" really well, as a romantic/sexual partner?

And for the lesbian women here, would that "passing" be a turn-off?

Would you ever consider a transwoman a woman? | Mumsnet

Mumsnet makes parents' lives easier by pooling knowledge, advice and support on everything from conception to childbirth, from babies to teenagers.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4782092-would-you-ever-consider-a-transwoman-a-woman

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Sugarfree23 · 12/04/2023 17:38

nilsmousehammer · 12/04/2023 17:21

So please enlighten me where is the line between Transman and butch lesbian?

..... you what?

I'm sorry, a masculine presenting female who has no confusion regarding their biological reality and identity and is attracted exclusively to other biological females - is more or less a bloke?

Seriously? Is that what you're saying?

Are we back into the realms of 'doesn't look femininely pretty = trans bloke' which was one of India Willoughby's gems of the day, and 'any female not doing pretty to be attractive to men, and not shaggable because refuses to do sex with men frigid = might as well be a bloke'?

It's like hanging out in a pub with a bunch of particularly misogynistic men in the bloody dark ages.

A transman, is a biologically female person who for a raft of possible reasons is wishing to present to the world an illusion that they are actually male. They may be of any sexuality, the defining feature is biological female identifying as a man.

A lesbian is a biologically female person who is perfectly happy being biologically female, may present in any way they bloody choose, and is exclusively attracted to other biological females.

I am about an inch away from identifying as straight until all this batshit passes by.

Calm!
Read @EyesOnThePies at 15:13, the transman she describes married to a lesbian sounds very much like a butch lesbian to me.

nilsmousehammer · 12/04/2023 17:43

They may in actual reality BE a lesbian who is presenting in a stereotypically masculine way. But they identify as a man, that is the transman part.

Please, for pete's sake, can we not confuse 'is/wants to be a man' with 'shags women and is not conventionally feminine'. Because fgs what were the past century of gay rights about if we're back to that? It's the worst of what lesbians have had shouted after them in the streets for years.

Bosky · 12/04/2023 18:21

"Would you ever consider a transman a man?"

I find this a really difficult question to answer because until relatively recently I had no idea that transmen existed.

Before I knew that they existed I met a couple socially with their children and I assumed that the husband and father was a man. A couple of years later I had some dealings with the husband as part of an event I was organising. It was a few years later after that when a mutual friend told me that the husband was a transman. If I had not been told then I would still be completely in the dark.

Had I met that person when I was younger I would definitely have found them attractive enough to have fancied them, ie. with me thinking that they were a man.

This is all hypothetical about how "younger me" would have reacted if I had got into a romantic relationship with that particular person and then discovered that they were a transman. However, I suspect that the mere fact would not have bothered me back then.

When I was told that the husband was a transman, it made a few things slot into place and perhaps explained some things that I thought were a bit unusual about their behaviour, both on first meeting and then later in dealings about the event I was organising. Definitely not that this person "behaved like a woman" but rather that they were very emotional and seemed to have quite a high level of anxiety.

Again before I knew that transmen existed, I knew another couple quite well and I now suspect that the husband was a transman. I didn't question anything about appearance or voice ("camp gay male" is the closest description) or behaviour at the time.

Something that did deeply confuse me was the first time that I encountered the couple outdoors. I was expecting to meet them and a couple approached from the distance, who I took to be two women. As they got closer I recognised the wife but the husband, who I knew much better, wouldn't "come into focus" is the best way I can describe it. It was only when they were almost within arms reach that I saw who it was. At the time, I put it down the way that he walked, without knowing that gait is a distinguishing feature between men and women.

Another "clue" that I think I have to the fact that the husband was a transman is a shocking warning that I was given by a friend. He said that if my then husband and I were invited to stay then this couple, who seemed very straight-laced, might well invite us to sleep with them and that the husband would invite my husband to have sex with his wife.

I did know that the couple were open about having difficulty conceiving and they did go on to have a baby using IVF. I might be putting 2+2 together and making 5 but my feeling now is that the husband was a transman and that the couple were trying to trick male friends into impregnating the wife.

Now I know that transmen exist, I have my suspicions about a healthcare worker who I have encountered a few times as a patient. Short, very slightly built, deep voice, bearded - with the tiniest hands I have ever seen, very small hands even for a woman. I have always found this person really nice and friendly and easy to get on with, something about their manner being very reassuring and totally unthreatening. I guess I will never know but I have my suspicions.

If we are talking about considering a transman as a man socially, I would prefer they were open and honest. If I knew their status then I would not consider them to be a man but I think I would have a hard job considering them to be a woman. A female, yes, but a "different sort of female" to a woman. I am talking about someone who I would assume to be a man unless I had been told different. A woman who has just had a hair cut and declared that she is a transman is different. I could never consider such a person as anything other than a woman.

As far as "romance and sex" are concerned, now that I do know that transmen exist AND I know about the medical and psychological aspects, even if just testosterone, I would definitely not consider an "out" transman attractive. I would be much less forgiving than I suspect my younger self would have been if I now became attracted to a "stealth" transman who then explained, or revealed, themselves to me. I would feel that they had acted manipulatively and had not treated me with respect, just as with any other major deception.

My younger self would have been, "Don't knock it until you've tried it and what have you got to lose?". I have tried quite enough new things over my lifetime to last me til I pop my clogs and what I do know from experience is that neither a micropenis nor a velvet cup and boobs do it for me. Middle class leftie men are also the worst in bed and worst at relationships IMHO so they can fuck right off too.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 12/04/2023 18:23

NotAnotherBathBomb · 11/04/2023 16:13

Sorry I meant shocked that she WAS a TW, not wasn't.

Filters, not reality

QueenHippolyta · 12/04/2023 18:40

@Sugarfree23
I can assure you as a long-term lesbian, butch lesbians are happy to be women, they just don't do femininity ( make-up, high heels)
They DON'T have fecking beards and hate themselves!!

NotAnotherBathBomb · 12/04/2023 18:48

So please enlighten me where is the line between Transman and butch lesbian? 🤔

One takes testosterone and has probably had or is hoping to have breast removal in efforts to appear less female and the other hasn't? I mean is isn't confusing, whether or not you agree with it.

EmotionalSupportHyena · 12/04/2023 18:53

Middle class leftie men are also the worst in bed and worst at relationships IMHO so they can fuck right off too.

Sad Billy Braggot Dicks, one and all.

NotAnotherBathBomb · 12/04/2023 18:54

Sugarfree23 · 12/04/2023 17:38

Calm!
Read @EyesOnThePies at 15:13, the transman she describes married to a lesbian sounds very much like a butch lesbian to me.

I’ve gone back and looked at it. I think her Trans partner has only had relationships with females, before and after transitioning.

Transitioning.

Why would someone who is transitioning to a man sound like a butch lesbian to you? 🙄

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 12/04/2023 18:59

@TheBugWife

my Gran used to say ‘there’s someone for everyone’. Honestly, I am glad your partner and you found each other, it’s quite encouraging.

TheBugWife · 12/04/2023 19:01

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 12/04/2023 18:59

@TheBugWife

my Gran used to say ‘there’s someone for everyone’. Honestly, I am glad your partner and you found each other, it’s quite encouraging.

Thanks, I agree with your gran.

So much more to him than whats between his legs after all.

Kanaloa · 12/04/2023 19:02

NotAnotherBathBomb · 12/04/2023 18:48

So please enlighten me where is the line between Transman and butch lesbian? 🤔

One takes testosterone and has probably had or is hoping to have breast removal in efforts to appear less female and the other hasn't? I mean is isn't confusing, whether or not you agree with it.

I would say the difference is that one is a lesbian woman who doesn’t fit with conventional standards of femininity but doesn’t care, and the other is normally a woman who doesn’t fit with conventional standards of femininity and does care, so tries to fit into another category.

Brokendaughter · 12/04/2023 21:39

Butch Lesbians like being women & they like their own female body as well as their female partners female body.
They are honest about who they are & who they are attracted to, they don't need to deceive anyone into a relationship or to lie about what sort of relationship it is.

Women who say they are not women don't like their female body & want other people to pretend they are something they are not.
They want to lie about what they are & if they are attracted to women, then they want that woman to lie about what she is too so they can play out their fantasy that anyone really believes they are the opposite sex.

How could you possibly think the two are similar?

GarlicGrace · 12/04/2023 22:03

NotAnotherBathBomb · 12/04/2023 18:54

I’ve gone back and looked at it. I think her Trans partner has only had relationships with females, before and after transitioning.

Transitioning.

Why would someone who is transitioning to a man sound like a butch lesbian to you? 🙄

Decided to bother with a reply to this. Our society is so male-centric that a woman who doesn't want a male partner and doesn't perform femininity is counted a not-woman.

I think this has varied over time, but certainly through the span of living memory, it's so ingrained that "Which of them is the man in their relationship?" is seen as a reasonable question. There are also much harsher signals, of course, such as corrective rape as well as physical and verbal assaults. Basically, if you're a woman who visibly rejects every aspect of our male-pleasing role in society, you are not a "valid" woman. But your inferior sex is known, so you aren't a man either. You're something strange and rather unwelcome.

Unless a growing woman has some confident lesbians in her life, there is no social representation of women like her. Media encourage girls to wear makeup, learn hairstyles, follow fashion and be what boys consider desirable. She has no cultural framework by which to understand herself. Faced with the realisation that she is a strange, unwelcome, invalid woman by prevailing standards, she's looking at a difficult and lonely path. It's a lot for a young person to shoulder.

The discovery that she can become valid by transing herself to a semblance of a man must come as a relief, a way out. It promises social acceptance of all that she is, provided she takes the required steps to seem male. That is - by sacrificing her breasts and risking her future health - she can actualise society's prejudice against women like her. As a "man", she'll fit in.

The logical definition of a not-woman is a man. Therefore, it isn't surprising that many people see butch lesbians as equivalent to trans men. And all because society hasn't bothered to embrace the full range of female existence, preferring instead to chuck "masculine" women and "feminine" men aside in adherence to patriarchally determined sex roles.

DocStrangelove · 13/04/2023 19:00

Sidaway · 11/04/2023 15:12

I take it that's a "no" then 😉

Must admit, that's my thought too. Just, no. Even if I believed in the gender stuff (which I don't), it would seem too - weird.

Yes sorry it's not really a parallel question - both questions were directed at us women, and so present us with different issues.

Someone should tell these girls who think being a dude would be cool:

  • straight women won't fancy them (missing something between the legs, and just not... quite right)
  • gay men wont (ditto)
  • lesbians wont (too masculine)
  • straight men won't (ditto)

Feel very sorry for what their lives might hold.

This reminds me of the anti-feminist fellows who suggested feminists were too ugly to get partners. My feminist mother raised me to not define myself by my romantic relationships..

At any rate this has not been my experience at all. I have had far more folks interested in me since transitioning.

FeodoraVictoria · 13/04/2023 20:20

As a straight woman even if a woman passes as a man from photos or far away (and is tall enough not to be spotted immediately) once you got very close to them I think it would be fairly obvious they were not a man and once intimate or in bed (which wouldn't happen as I am married) realizing this person was performing a stereotype would be extremely weird.. I doubt it gets that far with many women.

I find butch women way sexier because a lot of them have the swagger and self-confidence that I like in strong women generally and I find their radical self acceptance in a misogynistic society way more rebellious. I also enjoy how much they love and appreciate women.

Self-confidence and self-acceptance are always going to be much more attractive and interesting.

Lolaandbehold · 13/04/2023 22:04

I do not think transmen are indeed men. I think they are women.

I’d never consider dating one as I am not a lesbian.

Lolaandbehold · 13/04/2023 22:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OzempicClicker · 14/04/2023 07:07

No. I love butch women though.

anyolddinosaur · 14/04/2023 07:23

Interesting how many fewer comments on this thread than the parallel one. TRAs dont care about trans men.

The transmen I knew before they were tran do not pass, not even as the gay men they pretend to be. A beard does not make them a man. They are too short, the wrong shape, still have interests considered feminine. They date other transmen.

I'm not a lesbian, although intellectually I see advantages and rather regret I've never felt any sexual attraction to a woman. If I ever met a trans man who did pass I would not be attracted to them once I discovered they hated having a female body and were living a lie. @DocStrangelove Does the interest in you persist once they discover what you have done to yourself?

Beowulfa · 14/04/2023 11:04

Sexuality: I'm a heterosexual female, so no.

Physical attraction: In terms of superficially passing, I find beards, tattoos, short stature and chubbiness a turn-off, so your average transman is also a non-starter for me.

Emotional: I would rather be single than in a relationship with anyone needy. I wasted years of my life trying to "fix" a man with addiction issues.

nilsmousehammer · 14/04/2023 11:15

Interesting how many fewer comments on this thread than the parallel one. TRAs dont care about trans men.

It really does seem that way. They're only ever of use to the activism movement when they can be used as a resource to serve the male agenda.

Hence at the moment the never ending scripts:

  1. you cannot keep men out of your spaces because you'll still have to have females who prefer to look like men/lesbians who aren't proper women so ha

  2. you can't tell who are the females presenting as male and the males presenting as females so males will get in and you won't be able to stop them so ha

  3. if you're going to want single sex spaces for females then you have to provide single sex spaces for males (you're female, shitwork and providing for everyone else is your problem to solve mummy) and males won't want females in their spaces so ha

and on. And on. And on.

Same attitude. Same issue. A particular small group of males see females as walking resources of the sole purpose of serving males, and start shouting and behaving in really quite interesting ways when those females suggest that those males should perhaps differentiate between their maternal service unit and other females who will not be revolving around them and unconditionally putting them first, and that decent male people are capable of respecting other people's needs and inclusion too .

DocStrangelove · 14/04/2023 18:03

@anyolddinosaur could you clarify what you mean by "what you have done to yourself"? I'm a bit confused if you insist that you can always tell when men are trans but also suggest perhaps people can't tell that I am trans? Or that I am unattractive because I am trans? At any rate I am very forward about being trans for safety purposes and so can assure you that the interest does not wane when they find out I am trans. Human attraction is a complex and many-splendored thing.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 14/04/2023 18:21

@DocStrangelove "Human attraction is a complex and many-splendored thing." well I can certainly agree with that.

I think being upfront about who you are how you feel and what you want from a relationship is an ethical baseline, but I wouldn't begrudge anyone love or happiness.

DocStrangelove · 15/04/2023 01:59

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 14/04/2023 18:21

@DocStrangelove "Human attraction is a complex and many-splendored thing." well I can certainly agree with that.

I think being upfront about who you are how you feel and what you want from a relationship is an ethical baseline, but I wouldn't begrudge anyone love or happiness.

Thank you. I think we have found a lovely point of agreement.

Aphrathestorm · 15/04/2023 10:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.