Has anyone else fallen out with their teen or adult daughters over GC views?

[Lilifer]

Following from a comment on another thread, I'm wondering how many of us are out there who have completely different views on gender ideology than our teenagers or adult kids and has that affected your otherwise close relationships with them?

It has for me. My two girls are law students (one in Oxford) the one who is in Oxford is particularly TWAW in her views. When she was home at Christmas she chided me for referring to her non binary friend as he instead of they. I said nothing to keep the peace and didn't want to ruin Christmas in a row but it's horrible having this huge divide between us, this big thing that we cannot discuss because it would end up in some horrific row that might last for a long time. I don't think I can face that so for the moment I'm saying nothing in it.

But I want to discuss it with them so much because it is so important. And I don't think they are aware of the implications of any of it. For eg I mentioned the Tavistock clinic being closed down because of the safeguarding issues and massive clinical failures and my daughter seemed to think that puberty blockers were ok because they were reversible, like just pressing pause on puberty. They both also believe that JK Rowling is transphobic despite not being able to point to any concrete examples. And these are bright well educated kids. What the hell are they learning in these institutions?

Maybe it's just their youth. But this has definitely caused a wedge between me and my two girls and it makes me sad.

Could you agree to disagree? I have different opinions on some things than my children who are in their 20s. You obviously feel very strongly about this issue-but so might they. Can you respect their point of view without being upset by it? I don’t think anybody comes round to see a different point of view by being ‘challenged’ for a gotcha moment. Maybe their further reading and experiences may lead them to being GC. But it’s not going to happen because of their mum getting emotional and falling out with them over it. Did you not have different views to your parents?

Hi all I'm just coming back to this thread as have been away travelling since yesterday.

Thank you to all for your replies. There is a lot of comfort and hope in there for me, truly there is.

To those of you whose relationships with kids have been damaged by this, my heart goes out to you, and I hope you also get some hope from the replies on this thread like I did ❤️🙌🏻

Honestly I actually didn't have massively different views from my parents because they were quite liberal and trusted me so I never really went through a rebellious phase.

I did differ with them a bit on religion (they were catholic and I was agnostic) and they weren't massively big fans of drugs but I was never in to drugs either so that wasn't thing.

Of course I don't get emotional with them about it, I'm just aware of the gulf between us in this and it saddens me but I don't lump that on to them, I discuss it on here, and that helps,

To be fair I was very political and lefty when I was a student and did have some rows with my Daily Mail family. But we never stopped speaking or caring for them.

That's an excellent article on pronouns, very thought provoking around the way we perceive men and women and how language changes how we perceive risks. Thanks. I don't think it would convince DSD though - she'd just claim that she's not fearful of men and has no reason to be because most men aren't rapists. I can't win that conversation with her, as she's not open to reflection.

Personally I also dislike preferred pronouns because they feel to me like being made to pray to a god I don't believe in. I'm fine with others believing, but I don't. And using pronouns when I'm speaking is about me conveying to others how I perceive the people around me It feels like lying to use the pronouns that don't match the sex of the people I'm talking about.

And even raising this with DH tonight means I've also fallen out with him.

When I raised the idea of TW raping women in prisons he got outraged that I thought male rapists should be kept in male prisons. He can't see how women are more vulnerable than men, thinks that's sexist against men.

Refused to accept that at six foot tall and strong, he is more able to defend himself than our tiny teenage daughter who is 5ft3 an 7 stone.

My mind is blown 😞 I just can't believe he could turn this round into a men's rights issue.

The way I’ve dealt with this with other people who don’t agree with me is to just do the stuck record technique: “We clearly disagree on this issue. I suggest we stop talking about it, because I don’t think either of is going to convince the other, and arguing about it will cause us to fall out, which I don’t want.” And just keep repeating this, stuck record like, everything single time the subject comes up and refuse to engage. It’s not easy, I know. I’m lucky in that I don’t have any relatives who disagree with me; they all think the TWAW is a load of bollocks as well.

I think the aspect of GC beliefs that TWAW believers tend to find most objectionable are those about the risks to women of trans people using women's services (eg toilets or prisons) I realise that the encroachment on single sex places is a big concern for many people, but I don't think it's the way to change anyone's mind, as they feel you're portraying all trans people/all men as rapists and they get very defensive. And it is true that men are raped in single sex places, and trans people are at particularly high risk of being assaulted by other men. There's no need to deny that.

I've found a more fruitful discussion can be had in challenging the idea that anyone's body is "wrong". Our daughters do believe that gender stereotypes aren't compulsory. They know that it's ok for girls to be nerdy or boys to want to wear makeup, so talking about those things gets to the heart of the problem with trans identity and exposes that contradiction and with much less conflict. With DD she first recognised that "in an ideal world we wouldn't have gender stereotypes so no-one would feel the need to be trans" and we could talk around that.

@anon666 I would feel so betrayed 😔

anon666 · Yesterday 23:30

Refused to accept that at six foot tall and strong, he is more able to defend himself than our tiny teenage daughter who is 5ft3 an 7 stone.

Jeez, really? What is he on?

I tried to do that once in an argument - well I threatened to decide I was a man - but it was met with "I'm not going that because I know you're not serious. You don't actually believe that you're a man" which was a bit hard to deny really.

To be fair I think he is just being reactionary in an argument, I don't think it's a deeply held belief.

Which makes me reflect that it's such a danger these days in families when we are all in our own separate echo chambers. By the time we come together to discuss important topics like this, we are bringing a lot of anger and are primed with views that are less open-minded.

I suspect the male rape in prison argument is one he has come across before on the internet in response to this topic.

That means we've both been to an extent radicalised on polar opposite sides of a debate. Put these together and boom - "you're not listening to me, you're not considering my POV".

I'm only suggesting this because I think it's very sad to actually break down relationships over a difference of opinion on one topic. I always try to find a way to bridge it before breakdown.

Bloody hell. That sort of obliviousness would almost be a deal breaker for me. It would be such a shock to realise how alien our worldviews were.

To be fair I think he is just being reactionary in an argument, I don't think it's a deeply held belief.

That's almost worse to me. He's got the luxury of treating it as an intellectual exercise in a way that you and your daughter do not.

I honestly think that would be a red line for me. It would feel like a betrayal in a way few other differences of opinion would.

I'm not a believer in red lines in relationships. When you love someone you make every possible effort to understand their point of view.

I agree about privilege and luxury of not having to worry about it, but also it's a lack of understanding that leads to that stance. We have to break down barriers, not build them up.

Otherwise we end up like society is right now, all shouting our own position without seeking to understand and reconcile other people's.

We need to find common ground.

I think he needs to think about it more.

DH is quite literally twice my weight and 18 inches taller. It doesn’t matter, as I trust him (and he’s useful for getting things off high shelves). But he similarly thought women were somehow exaggerating about feeling a risk from men, on the weird grounds that ‘everyone gets embarrassed about mixed sex facilities but it doesn’t mean they’re scared.’

Chump. I asked him to consider how he’d feel if he regularly bumped into strangers who were a foot taller than himself, 9 stone heavier and most of that muscle. Mountain gorillas, maybe.

He did get it in the end.

When you love someone you make every possible effort to understand their point of view

I'm saying this gently not arguing with you, but is that the same effort he's making to understand your point of view?

I also don't think it's a lack of understanding in all cases - It's wilful. There are people who are focussed on a certain agenda (not saying anyone's husband or children are, they're just caught up in it) and will twist everything from other people's words to biological definitions to the definition of words in order to achieve that.

They won't be meeting us halfway.

"I've found a more fruitful discussion can be had in challenging the idea that anyone's body is "wrong". Our daughters do believe that gender stereotypes aren't compulsory. They know that it's ok for girls to be nerdy or boys to want to wear makeup, so talking about those things gets to the heart of the problem with trans identity and exposes that contradiction and with much less conflict. With DD she first recognised that "in an ideal world we wouldn't have gender stereotypes so no-one would feel the need to be trans" and we could talk around that."

Great point, I will be using that when next discussing with dds.

We mostly avoid the subject with one of our DC, they are too captured at the moment despite having an MA in a subject which ought to make anyone GC. They are aware of our views and I refuse to hide them. I notice that they are still a huge fan of Harry Potter books though.

The other DC is quietly GC but is aware this is not a popular opinion among many of their peers. We can have a sensible discussion when the other DC is not here.

I think unfortunately they had been brainwashed into believing that to disagree means you must be a bigot, Nazi and all around meanie. When a mother who they love disagrees and who they know isn’t an evil witch it’s too overwhelming or they may just believe you have gone to the dark side and can’t believe how uneducated you must be compared to all the enlightened types they associate with. Stepping outside the bubble is traumatizing. They honestly haven’t had their world view challenged and can’t cope.

Brainwashed by the sacred castes in this video that Met police won't arrest?

Reading these stories makes me so thankful that my 3 children are all firmly GC. DD(18) was turned onto the topic a few years ago after stumbling across a GMTV interview with Kelly-Jae Keen and India Wiloughby. Kelly-Jae wiped the floor with India and my daughter was an instant fan. She even came with me to the Let Women Speak rally in Glasgow and - amazingly - shared photos on social media with no ill effects.

DS is at Oxford and I echo what others have said about the amount of virtue signaling at that place. He's GC but doesn't want to put his head above the parapet; says it's not the hill he wants to die on.

DD(15) says it's only the weirdos at school who are TWAW. This gives me hope. Once it stops being cool it will surely wither and die.

Solidarity to all the mothers in conflict with kids over this. I think it's good advice to avoid the bathroom topic and focus on the need for stereotypes to change rather than bodies.

Mine was GC, until she wasn't, it came as a huge shock.
The wasn't coincided with her going to Uni, a Russell group Uni studying biology.
She really got cross with me because I said women can't rape men, and then came the "women go into men's toilets", and, "I have trans friends".
I have one of said friends on Insta, the fake crying video over the trans genocide is truly something.

This really sneaked up on me, I didn't put in the groundwork when she was younger as it wasn't a thing, then it suddenly was and it was too late.