Page 6 | Has anyone else fallen out with their teen or adult daughters over GC views?

Lilifer · 2023-03-19T14:01:24+00:00

Following from a comment on another thread, I'm wondering how many of us are out there who have completely different views on gender ideology than our teenagers or adult kids and has that affected your otherwise close relationships with them? It has for me. My two girls are law students (one in Oxford) the one who is in Oxford is particularly TWAW in her views. When she was home at Christmas she chided me for referring to her non binary friend as he instead of they. I said nothing to keep the peace and didn't want to ruin Christmas in a row but it's horrible having this huge divide between us, this big thing that we cannot discuss because it would end up in some horrific row that might last for a long time. I don't think I can face that so for the moment I'm saying nothing in it. But I want to discuss it with them so much because it is so important. And I don't think they are aware of the implications of any of it. For eg I mentioned the Tavistock clinic being closed down because of the safeguarding issues and massive clinical failures and my daughter seemed to think that puberty blockers were ok because they were reversible, like just pressing pause on puberty. They both also believe that JK Rowling is transphobic despite not being able to point to any concrete examples. And these are bright well educated kids. What the hell are they learning in these institutions? Maybe it's just their youth. But this has definitely caused a wedge between me and my two girls and it makes me sad.

MarshaBradyo · 20/03/2023 06:22

Slight change I do comment that despite pronouns you can’t change sex, but I don’t challenge using they etc as it’s likely come from the school

pontefractals · 20/03/2023 07:21

Babdoc · 19/03/2023 16:11

Hell no, OP! My adult DD runs the spoof “Days of boyhood” series on Youtube, taking the piss out of the transgender movement in general and Dylan Mulvaney’s “ Being a girl” in particular!
She was also the first speaker at KJK’s Let Women Speak event in Glasgow, and runs the Gender Critical Autistics group on FB.
We are both firmly of the Terven persuasion.

Thank you for mentioning that group Babdoc - I've just joined it. I am in a "late diagnosis" group but bloody hell it's a tedious, pronoun-ridden mess. And as for the craft groups... 🙄

Babdoc · 20/03/2023 07:35

Ha, welcome to the terven auties, pontefractals! You have found your tribe.

yestheyhavethesamedad · 20/03/2023 08:11

My adult daughter and i didnt so much fall out , but we did agree to disagree and not discuss , she was very twaw and jk rowling is a bigot and hateful ,and either gave away her harry potter stuff or boxed it up , have noticed last few times ive been in her house , its starting to reappear , jk rowling books on bookshelf , mugs on display in kitchen .

Greenfairydust · 20/03/2023 08:11

But you don't want to discuss these issues, you want your daughter to adopt your views...

That's not how a debate works.

I think it is a silly thing to fall out over. Just accept that your daughter thinks differently on the matter.

People are allowed to have different opinions.

chanceofpear · 20/03/2023 08:25

unclebuck · 19/03/2023 14:47

The problem with going to Oxford is that they are told they are cleverer and better than everyone else and that they have authority to tell others what to think etc. DS is at Oxford (also Law) and whilst enjoying the privilege this gives him job offer wise, he thinks that the best thing would be if they shut Oxbridge entirely. He believes that the arrogance shown to 'ordinary people' by the government and civil service during C19 was a direct result of Oxford's fucked up 'we know better than those plebs' system. He would never dare reveal his views on anything to his peers or tutors. It's a very fucked up system.

Your son is a bright young man to realise this so early.

My dd is part of the whole twaw. She also describes herslef as a femenist. I just talk about safe spaces to her and the fact that it is an opportunity for men (however they identify to harm women). Not all trans people of course. She is finally awakening to the face it is a complicated issue.

EmpressOfTheSofa · 20/03/2023 08:39

Greenfairydust · 20/03/2023 08:11

But you don't want to discuss these issues, you want your daughter to adopt your views...

That's not how a debate works.

I think it is a silly thing to fall out over. Just accept that your daughter thinks differently on the matter.

People are allowed to have different opinions.

TWAW is not an opinion. It’s a factual inaccuracy.

FOJN · 20/03/2023 08:43

Greenfairydust · 20/03/2023 08:11

But you don't want to discuss these issues, you want your daughter to adopt your views...

That's not how a debate works.

I think it is a silly thing to fall out over. Just accept that your daughter thinks differently on the matter.

People are allowed to have different opinions.

Not all opinions are created equal.

If someone insisted I was a bigot for failing to recognise a jelly bean as a leg of lamb I would be entirely justified in viewing them with contempt or pity and would feel morally obliged to gently steer them back to reality.

Ndd135632 · 20/03/2023 08:49

CoastalHeart · 20/03/2023 00:25

I was that daughter with my mother. We’d have some blistering arguments, let me tell you.

Then I came around and finally saw sense. It was a relief to have someone who pushed back, and better to have someone I could safely discuss my doubts when the cognitive dissonance hit. But we had that kind of relationship, where I felt safe arguing with her. Having her pass and losing that sort of safe space to be a bit of an idiot was hard.

As a mother this gives me hope. Can you tell us why you were so convinced with it all? What eventually made you see the light? It really helps with our own kids. Thank you

Mummyoflittledragon · 20/03/2023 09:12

I already had ranted to dh in front of 14 yo dd enough for my views to be known before she was taught anything at secondary school. Something must have gone in as she called me up to watch a video the school had produced for PHSE during homeschooling. She rolls her eyes at me but is very GC as are her friends, who are mostly sporty.

myveryownelectrickitten · 20/03/2023 09:13

Soubriquet · 19/03/2023 17:09

My daughter is only 9 (10 next Sunday), so young enough to still have the beliefs I’m teaching her and so far she is with me on men can’t be women.

Im hoping by the time she reaches the age where she starts to question it, she will either carry on believing what I’ve told her (the truth), or that the whole thing has fizzled out some especially with the Tavistock clinics being closed down and stuff like that

My 10 year old is adamantly against it all - even more so than I am I think! She and all her friends are very vocal about it in fact. There are two things driving this, I think - first, they’re right at that age where they are becoming very self-conscious about their bodies and the approach of puberty (DD is not developing yet — she is small and sporty and still looks very young for her age, but some of her friends are starting to develop breasts and are very self-conscious about it. They talk about this a LOT and in general differences between them and the boys at school and so on, an are very vociferous about eg. not being seen changing for PE by the boys.)

The second driver of this is that these 10 year old girls are all suddenly starting to encounter the new fad for unisex toilets in leisure centres, libraries etc. Where they have always been used to mums taking them into the ladies’ loo all their lives, they are now at the age where they can be allowed to go to the loo on their own - and when they are out, they are encountering unisex loos and they absolutely adamantly DO NOT LIKE these. I took a group of girls to a cafe recently at the cinema, and they (and I) were horrified to find the loos were suddenly unisex.

Student-age young women might not feel so vulnerable in such loos, but ten year old girls finding themselves washing their hands next to adult men? They HATE it. Of course they feel unsafe, and rightly so. Am not just unsafe, but of course adult men treat loos like pigs - so, piss all over the floor, trails of loo paper, no hand towels, mess in the sinks, that kind of thing — well, young girls hate it. And it means that now I have to accompany pre-teens to the loo again, when they should be able to just go on their own.

This loo issue, more than anything else, is driving a pre-teen backlash against this amongst DD’s friends, and quite right to be honest. I can’t believe that in 2023 we are having to argue that women and girls need to be able to feel safe and clean going to a public loo. These girls are just coming up to the age when they are about to start periods in the next few years; they deserve privacy and comfort popping for a wee in a cafe or shopping centre or any public space.

Bouledeneige · 20/03/2023 11:37

My DD and I had some arguments about this when she was 16 or 17. I was told that I must never say anything like that in front of her friends. We have avoided the subject now for about 5 or 6 years. She has a couple of trans friends and I use their preferred pronouns. But I don't think she's as gung ho as she was - she's definitely a feminist and comments frequently on misogyny.

Sadly my DS who was always sceptical about the trans stuff and used to say as a joke that he was a woman for a day (after I'd told him my views) then went to Sussex university and got brainwashed about Kathleen Stock - largely by very vocal female friends. I was gutted as he was always very logical and Scientific before. No longer can discuss with him.

Blackandwhitehorse · 20/03/2023 11:56

University seems to be a common theme here. My sister recently left part way through her course and is slowly moving away from it, and wants third spaces. My other sister at uni is a terf but has to keep her mouth shut.

Makes me so angry what universities are doing, these will be the people who set the political agenda so we are in for a long slog.

boboshmobo · 20/03/2023 12:01

I don't discuss with my 19 year old ..

I don't think you can really with that generation and I don't want to fall out with her

I don't care enough about 'twaw tbh to lose my dd although I think it's wrong ..

Sad times !

PlainSkyr · 20/03/2023 12:42

FOJN · 19/03/2023 16:07

Just use the pronouns these people choose, why upset them, what’s the point?

This article explains why we shouldn't uncritically use preferred pronouns.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Excellent article! Really made me think about why I don't use preferred pronouns. Thank you for sharing.

CoastalHeart · 20/03/2023 14:45

Ndd135632 · 20/03/2023 08:49

As a mother this gives me hope. Can you tell us why you were so convinced with it all? What eventually made you see the light? It really helps with our own kids. Thank you

Show quote history

I’m going to be honest, I came to the whole TRA mentality thanks to an already existing interest in feminism and gay rights as a young teenager, so for a child who grew an interest in social justice through a TRA mentality, it may be different.

I think I saw it as a natural progression for social justice, and as a closeted young lesbian who very much felt like an outsider with other girls/young women, it presented an easy answer for why I was the way I was. But because I had that basis in feminism, I started noticing how women (or “AFAB people”) were routinely being silenced, the rape culture rhetoric that grew out of the cotton ceiling arguments, the emotional labor demanded by TW to advocate for TW while not extending the same solidarity towards women, and…well, the sheer amount of TW/“AMAB” trans people being routinely outed in the community for being sexual predators. THAT was a big one for me.

And throughout it all, I was still reading feminist literature and blogs, and even though a lot of those were pro-TRA, you still get hit with the cognitive dissonance of seeing women’s rights being eroded with abortion access (speaking as a USAmerican here), women getting arrested for miscarriages, femicide, domestic violence, etc…all the while being told that AMAB trans people are the most uniquely oppressed people and that AFAB trans people and “cis” women are privileged over them. That’s when it clicked that this was essentially a men’s rights movement.

Feminism led me to it, but feminism pulled me out, too. (Not to mention a strong-minded woman as a mother, eternally grateful that she provided a space to safely argue, unlike what we see today.) But unfortunately, there’s a massive anti-feminist streak in these spaces that is getting progressively worse. I can’t really offer advice about how to help tug your kids out from making fools of themselves, but I hope my experiences shed a bit of light?

Ndd135632 · 20/03/2023 14:59

CoastalHeart · 20/03/2023 14:45

I’m going to be honest, I came to the whole TRA mentality thanks to an already existing interest in feminism and gay rights as a young teenager, so for a child who grew an interest in social justice through a TRA mentality, it may be different.

I think I saw it as a natural progression for social justice, and as a closeted young lesbian who very much felt like an outsider with other girls/young women, it presented an easy answer for why I was the way I was. But because I had that basis in feminism, I started noticing how women (or “AFAB people”) were routinely being silenced, the rape culture rhetoric that grew out of the cotton ceiling arguments, the emotional labor demanded by TW to advocate for TW while not extending the same solidarity towards women, and…well, the sheer amount of TW/“AMAB” trans people being routinely outed in the community for being sexual predators. THAT was a big one for me.

And throughout it all, I was still reading feminist literature and blogs, and even though a lot of those were pro-TRA, you still get hit with the cognitive dissonance of seeing women’s rights being eroded with abortion access (speaking as a USAmerican here), women getting arrested for miscarriages, femicide, domestic violence, etc…all the while being told that AMAB trans people are the most uniquely oppressed people and that AFAB trans people and “cis” women are privileged over them. That’s when it clicked that this was essentially a men’s rights movement.

Feminism led me to it, but feminism pulled me out, too. (Not to mention a strong-minded woman as a mother, eternally grateful that she provided a space to safely argue, unlike what we see today.) But unfortunately, there’s a massive anti-feminist streak in these spaces that is getting progressively worse. I can’t really offer advice about how to help tug your kids out from making fools of themselves, but I hope my experiences shed a bit of light?

Show quote history

Thank you. It’s useful to know that once people really start questioning it many will see the cognitive dissonance going on. Happy that you are safely through. We are living through the most misogynistic period of my lifetime and it’s scary to see how this patriarchal ideology is sucking in our daughters.

ISpyCobraKai · 20/03/2023 15:08

Blackandwhitehorse · 20/03/2023 11:56

University seems to be a common theme here. My sister recently left part way through her course and is slowly moving away from it, and wants third spaces. My other sister at uni is a terf but has to keep her mouth shut.

Makes me so angry what universities are doing, these will be the people who set the political agenda so we are in for a long slog.

Dd is in her first year of four which is v worrying.
Her Bf of six years graduates this year so I'm hoping that will help.

VicSynix · 20/03/2023 17:34

Greenfairydust · 20/03/2023 08:11

But you don't want to discuss these issues, you want your daughter to adopt your views...

That's not how a debate works.

I think it is a silly thing to fall out over. Just accept that your daughter thinks differently on the matter.

People are allowed to have different opinions.

I have a friend who is not at all terfy - but she said her daughter (late 20s) gets upset with her if she says she's been watching and enjoying Strike, because of the JK Rowling connection. Daughter used to be a huge Harry Potter fan but of course, isn't any more.

That's not pestering a child to adopt your views, that's complete intolerance on the part of the child.

pontefractals · 20/03/2023 18:13

Babdoc · 20/03/2023 07:35

Ha, welcome to the terven auties, pontefractals! You have found your tribe.

Having said that... I'm fairly sure I was accepted, but now the entire group appears to have disappeared...

Babdoc · 20/03/2023 18:18

It’s still coming up on FB search when I check, pontefractals? Have you had a response from the mods to your join request?

anon666 · 20/03/2023 18:32

Yes.

Interestingly it was DD who decided this was something we couldn't talk about, rather than me.

I'm not against people who are trans gender at all. However I do want a sensible discussion about it, and won't be shut down just because a small minority of very vocal people have decided this is the new orthodoxy.

I also feel strongly that women's rights need to be preserved and the rush to TWAW has trampled over that.

I initially wasn't thrilled with a new category being created and subsumed within "women" - namely I'm now a "cis" woman within the new broadened category of "women" which includes "trans" women. I felt it was our decision as women rather than the TW movement. But I believe compassion, empathy and love is the best starting point for these discussions so wouldn't die in a ditch over it.

Now I struggle with the idea that TW are replacing cis-women as representative of women. I consider it possible that there is a unique perspective having a womb, pregnancy, birthing children and had the experience of being genetically women from birth. I am open minded and don't absolutely insist I'm right, but I I dislike women being called "people with vulvas" and a lot of the language that's changing too quickly. I feel it needs more thought and consideration before we abandon and dismiss all biological sex / gender distinctions.

All of my opinions are flexible, open to persuasion and open to challenge. But I won't allow myself be shut down or cancelled in my personal life over it. On social media I am very wary of expressing an opinion.

pontefractals · 20/03/2023 18:48

Babdoc · 20/03/2023 18:18

It’s still coming up on FB search when I check, pontefractals? Have you had a response from the mods to your join request?

I've tracked it down and I'm pending, thank you! Must have been one of those special fb features...

ISpyCobraKai · 20/03/2023 18:54

As much as I miss my daughter, and would love to have her back in my life, I won't lie to her about my views ever.
I'd obviously agree to never discuss it, but going along with TWAW nonsense, no.

Knowing her as I do she'd have no respect for me if I lied to her either.

Bikechic · 20/03/2023 20:20

I've not fallen out with DD. She 'corrects' me when I refer to her friend as 'she' rather than 'they'. I politely ignore and carry on with what I was saying. I usually continue in a way that avoids pronouns altogether so as not to deliberately wind her up. This works for us, especially as I think DD is really just trying to fit in and not get bullied.