Women's rights general conversations - Thread 4

[Kucinghitam]

Continuation of Thread 3.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

I always liked Levi Stubbs' Tears, but yeah, he was/is.

I already said it's entirely your choice how you conduct your relationships. Just don't tell other women we are "misgendering" or being rude for not colluding in the fantasy. And don't tell us it does no harm, when we know it does.

As far as your own life choices are concerned, it's up to you. I would rather be standing in the truth so my young relatives know they can trust me. But if you make different choices, that's up to you. Just don't tell me I'm rude and misgendering. That's all.

@beastlyslumber - I read back over her posts and I don't see @NotDrowningJustCrowing telling any other woman what she should do, just describing what her personal choices are in a particular personal situation. Who are you to criticise those or assume what she would or should do in any other situation?

NotDrowningJustCrowing - sounds like a bit of a tricky situation. I'd also use the preferred pronoun (to their face) but inwardly roll my eyes. I have to in my work and I guess it's not a purity spiral I'm willing to get caught in.

She said it was rude and misgendering not to collude in a friend's fantasy of being the opposite sex. That's what I was responding to.

I'm NOT telling her what to do about her friend. I've repeatedly said that's her choice.

Union branch AGM upcoming. I've put myself forward as women's officer.

Good luck!

@beastlyslumber - she didn't say it was rude and misgendering (as in it would be rude for anyone to do that). She said that's how she would feel if she did that. Here's the post:

"Sorry, but "colluding in a fantasy" is you being rude to me. It's very clear here what my views are. Do I think my neighbour or my niece are men? No. No, I don't. Does it hurt me to refer to them as he/him when I remember? No. Does it hurt anyone else? No. Would I be supportive of medical interventions from puberty blockers to testosterone to top surgery to bottom surgery? No. I'm not suggesting that anyone else reacts to the situations I'm in in the same way but it works for me. It would be rude or hurtful or unnecessary for me to double down on the pronouns, not least because 99% of the time I'm never going to have to use them when I'm with them. Everyone else can do as they wish and whatever sits best with them."

Note the crucial words "for me" and the clear statements that she isn't suggesting anyone else reacts in the same way. I think you have read what she wrote without the care and attention it required and responded in haste.

I think that for some reason @Britinme you are jumping in to have a go at me without understanding the point at all.

Try reading the comments before that one and see if it clarifies anything. I litreally said, do what you want, but don't tell other women we are misgendering. She replied with the nonsense above, and I responded saying, again, your choice. But actually yes it DOES hurt other women when you say it's rude to speak the truth and it does hurt transitioners too.

If you're going to try to stir up shit on this thread, at least try to understand what you're actually talking about.

Good luck!

I am not trying to stir anything up - just to clarify what I think is a misunderstanding. I did read the earlier posts and I don't think they say what you claim.

Well I know what I said, @Britinme. It's not my problem if posters like yourself decide I mean something other than what I say. As I've said ad nauseum, the pp can do whatever she likes wrt her relative. I just don't want her to call it misgendering when other women speak the truth.

I genuinely don't see how I can make this any clearer for you.

I've said my say and I'll leave it there. I just read what people write.

Selectively.

Note the crucial words "for me" and the clear statements that she isn't suggesting anyone else reacts in the same way.

That's how I read it too.

Relevant part of NotDrowing's original post:

A couple of weeks ago I was chatting with her girlfriend and she referred to my neighbour as he so I got what the pronoun was. Today I was talking and I inadvertently used she when talking about the conversation with the girlfriend and also about a niece and blah and ... Neighbour was "It really doesn't matter. It's just a thing. I get it, don't worry." I was worried that I'd upset him because whatever my views are in general when it comes to an individual who I actively like I never want to cause offence.

I did not respond to this, because even though I disagree that we shouldn't correctly sex people if they're nice, I don't really care what NotDrowning does about her neighbour and she put it as a personal post.

But then another poster said this:

I wish there was a like button on Mumsnet but as there isn't I'll just say how much your post resonates with me. I would never, ever dream of misgendering the transwoman I know and that's partially because she doesn't give a shit about it, she just wants to live her life peacefully.

And I did respond then, saying:

But it's not misgendering.

If you want to collude in a friend's fantasy, that's absolutely your choice and I'm sure your friends appreciate it.

But please don't suggest that using the correct pronouns for someone's sex is rude. A man does not become 'she' if he's really really nice. My judgement of what pronouns to use is based on sex, not personality, depth of friendship or anything else.

NotDrowing then decided I was being very rude to her, personally, by using the phrase "colluding in a fantasy." She said that this was rude and that she felt that using someone's preferred pronouns was no one else's business because it didn't hurt anyone. Lots of rhetorical questions about does it hurt you, does it hurt other people, etc etc.

I responded that it wasn't rude to speak the truth, and:

Does it hurt other people? YES. It does, actually. Read "Pronouns are Rohypnol." Your lies only make it harder for women like me to speak the truth without censure.

NotDrowing then asked me what she thought she should do then, what was my great advice etc, and I said, do whatever you like, just don't tell other women they are being rude and misgendering for not doing the same. Then other people started scolding me for saying that to NotDrowning.

I stand by every word I've said here. I don't care if NotDrowning wants to join in the pretence with her friend/niece/whoever, but I don't want to be told it's rude or misgendering for me not to join in the pretence with her. That's all.

I hope this is clear now because what a fucking waste of everyone's time this is.

@YetAnotherSpartacus - thanks. Good to know I'm not the only one with that reaction but I don't want to waste any more time parsing posts as @beastlyslumber and I clearly read them differently.

I hope this is clear now because what a fucking waste of everyone's time this is.

Which takes us back to the initial problem of men not being told "no" when they first declared they were women. But we are where we are.

Yes, how dare we not go along with the lie that men can be women if those men are nice people! Who cares how uncomfortable it makes other women, or what it leads to us being expected to sacrifice, as long as you never make a man feel the slightest bit uncomfortable.

Another discussion that has me nodding along:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4762250-joanthan-haidt-article-on-why-emotional-thinking-causes-depression-in-young-women?

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · Today 09:42

Union branch AGM upcoming. I've put myself forward as women's officer.

I wish you all the best with that! And fingers crossed that no chaps call Keaghleeigh have applied...

The post has been vacant a while, so may be uncontested. The union is a captured one (ate there any that aren't?) but this year's planned campaigns are decidedly biological.

After reading about the girl at the school in Coventry where a boy kicked the toilet door in, which hit her head, and she ended up in hospital, I've gone 'live' on fb. One reaction so far, from my cousin, who it seems is also a terf. I have a few 'twaw' in my contact list on fb, so am curious to see what happens next.

Where did the link go?

www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-schoolgirl-taken-hospital-after-26418069

I don't see why we should have unisex loos in schools at all.