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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Women's rights general conversations - Thread 4

984 replies

Kucinghitam · 09/03/2023 09:19

Continuation of Thread 3.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/03/2023 12:23

I'm on another talkboard where there are some awful misogynistic men and some much more reasonable men, and you see the same dynamic. People sometimes used to call it "the testicles of objectivity" on Twitter. It's a bit like Solomon, arbitrating between two conflicting claims. Men often set themselves up in this role on this issue, I've found.

Winterborne74 · 09/03/2023 12:29

Sorry @Ereshkigalangcleg - my sarcasm didn't land well. I completely agree with this "Men set what's considered "reasonable" for women about rights' issues" and find it incredibly vexing.

Paraphrased "If only the women had been reasonable and civil like us we wouldn't have needed to drive them out" when in fact they had never bothered to engage or learn, preferring to quibble about tone and positioning themselves as the voice of reason between straw harridans of their own imaginations on the one side, and trans rights extremists on the other. They seem to think they have something to offer in terms of identifying a middle way that didn't occur to the ladies who were too busy screeching. The level of delusion is quite impressive really.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/03/2023 12:33

positioning themselves as the voice of reason between straw harridans of their own imaginations on the one side, and trans rights extremists on the other. They seem to think they have something to offer in terms of identifying a middle way that didn't occur to the ladies who were too busy screeching.

Exactly this!

Kucinghitam · 09/03/2023 12:45

"the testicles of objectivity"

Can I just say @Ereshkigalangcleg , this is 🙌 and I'm going to be sniggering about this for a long time Grin

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/03/2023 12:48

There's a post on one of the IWD threads here where the company got two men to speak about women's rights, and then when challenged the EDI team said that there was "research" that "gender equality" was achieved more easily when men promoted it, rather than women. Well yes, maybe people will listen to men more, but isn't that the whole problem?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/03/2023 12:50

Yes it's great isn't it, Kucing, perfect to describe that specific subset of mansplaining Grin

tootiredtobother · 09/03/2023 13:05

oooh my new retort, 'the testicles of objectivity', excellent

Britinme · 09/03/2023 13:12

I'm going to remember those testicles!

Winterborne74 · 09/03/2023 13:16

I am now picturing them being weighed on the scales of justice, perfectly balanced.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 09/03/2023 13:16

A sentence you probably didn't expect to type today, Brit. 😆

I very much enjoyed the appearance of Borges' list on the agender thread.

Britinme · 09/03/2023 13:17

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 09/03/2023 13:16

A sentence you probably didn't expect to type today, Brit. 😆

I very much enjoyed the appearance of Borges' list on the agender thread.

So true!

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 09/03/2023 13:34

This post, over on the Alice Walker thread:

RethinkingLife · Today 13:02

There is an interesting essay: Dostoevsky and the Pleasure of Taking Offense

There's a good quotation from the Karamazov novel (said by Father Zosima):

“A man who lies to himself is the first to take offense. It sometimes feels very good to take offense, doesn’t it? And surely he knows that no one has offended him, and that he himself has invented the offense and told lies just for the beauty of it, that he has exaggerated for the sake of effect, that he has picked on a word and made a mountain out of a pea—he knows all that, and still he is the first to take offense, he likes feeling offended, it gives him great pleasure, and thus he reaches the point of real hostility.”

And there's a nice discussion of this.

A scholar of Russian literature named Gary Saul Morson recently responded to such questions when talking of The Brothers Karamazov. “We appreciate that people, far from maximizing their own advantage, sometimes deliberately make victims of themselves in order, for example, to feel morally superior.” In this sense, taking offense can transform humiliation into the pride of victimhood, thus embodying the contradictory commixture we all experience, at least minimally, of self-importance and the feeling of inadequacy around others who appear to have an advantage. Offense-taking invigorates a righteous indignation in which disgrace and self-importance are merged into a false victory. To react with indignation suggests an inviolable personal center that, by the sheer magnitude of the outburst, seems to demonstrate its own validity. In this way, offense-taking can manifest the inward inconsistencies and the quiet lies we tell ourselves.

quillette.com/2022/06/17/the-duelist-mentalityon-the-allures-of-taking-offense/

Winterborne74 · 09/03/2023 13:39

Eerie! Very good, I enjoyed that @BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn 😉Will go and read the thread now.

Kucinghitam · 09/03/2023 13:40

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 09/03/2023 13:34

This post, over on the Alice Walker thread:

RethinkingLife · Today 13:02

There is an interesting essay: Dostoevsky and the Pleasure of Taking Offense

There's a good quotation from the Karamazov novel (said by Father Zosima):

“A man who lies to himself is the first to take offense. It sometimes feels very good to take offense, doesn’t it? And surely he knows that no one has offended him, and that he himself has invented the offense and told lies just for the beauty of it, that he has exaggerated for the sake of effect, that he has picked on a word and made a mountain out of a pea—he knows all that, and still he is the first to take offense, he likes feeling offended, it gives him great pleasure, and thus he reaches the point of real hostility.”

And there's a nice discussion of this.

A scholar of Russian literature named Gary Saul Morson recently responded to such questions when talking of The Brothers Karamazov. “We appreciate that people, far from maximizing their own advantage, sometimes deliberately make victims of themselves in order, for example, to feel morally superior.” In this sense, taking offense can transform humiliation into the pride of victimhood, thus embodying the contradictory commixture we all experience, at least minimally, of self-importance and the feeling of inadequacy around others who appear to have an advantage. Offense-taking invigorates a righteous indignation in which disgrace and self-importance are merged into a false victory. To react with indignation suggests an inviolable personal center that, by the sheer magnitude of the outburst, seems to demonstrate its own validity. In this way, offense-taking can manifest the inward inconsistencies and the quiet lies we tell ourselves.

quillette.com/2022/06/17/the-duelist-mentalityon-the-allures-of-taking-offense/

Fuck yes, that's an amazingly accurate way to describe TRSOHers We Have Known.

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 09/03/2023 13:49

the testicles of objectivity

Is that just another way of saying "a load of old bollocks"?

SinnerBoy · 09/03/2023 13:52

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · Today 13:34

There is an interesting essay: Dostoevsky and the Pleasure of Taking Offense There's a good quotation from the Karamazov novel (said by Father Zosima):

That's a perfect description of someone I know.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 09/03/2023 14:12

Is the gender thread back?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 09/03/2023 14:13

agender

Tricyrtis2022 · 09/03/2023 14:14
Tricyrtis2022 · 09/03/2023 14:21

I read this years ago but it makes sense to me. It's about the philosopher Giambattista Vico (1668—1744) and his thoughts on society and The Barbarism of Reflection in his work 'New Science'.

Vico claims that history begins in a barbarism of sense and ends in a barbarism of reflection. The barbarism of reflection is a returned barbarism in which the common sense established by religion through poetic wisdom holding a society together has been broken down by individual interests. The interests are spurred because individuals each think according to their own conceptual scheme without concern for the society, which makes it barbaric.

Vico describes the returned barbarism this way, “such peoples [in the barbarism], like so many beasts, have fallen into the custom of each man thinking only of his own private interests and have reached the extreme delicacy, or better of pride, in which like wild animals they bristle and lash out at the slightest displeasure (NS 1106).” These private interests lead into a civil war in which everyone betrays everyone else. This takes humanity back to where it started — individual giants acting solely on their own individual passions.

Sound familiar?

Tricyrtis2022 · 09/03/2023 14:23

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn that is such an apt quote!

angelico53 · 09/03/2023 16:27

Some remarkable posts here today.

StephanieSuperpowers · 09/03/2023 16:54

I'm quite pleased IWD is over.

MavisMcMinty · 09/03/2023 17:30

Winterborne74 · 09/03/2023 13:16

I am now picturing them being weighed on the scales of justice, perfectly balanced.

Ah, except I don’t think they are perfectly balanced.

And google tells me The right testis is usually 10% larger than the left.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 09/03/2023 18:32

I wonder whether there's any relation to handedness, or whether it's a more fixed asymmetry like which side the heart is.

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