Women's rights general conversations - Thread 4

[Kucinghitam]

Continuation of Thread 3.

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or "Has anybody noticed this recurring theme that keeps coming up??" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

[Tricyrtis2022]

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn

I think the important point of her article wasn't the relative badness of what is being done in the 2 countries, which is obviously not comparable, but that the same tools are being used - and the same attitudes leveraged - to do it.

That's what I meant when I posted it, but you've put it better.

[Winterborne74]

I agree that was an important point, my comments were prompted by the part quoted in the thread which, while not wrong, don’t get us anywhere in my view.

[beastlyslumber]

@BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn

I think the important point of her article wasn't the relative badness of what is being done in the 2 countries, which is obviously not comparable, but that the same tools are being used - and the same attitudes leveraged - to do it.

Exactly this

[NotDrowningJustCrowing]

Yep, to the yep. She wasn't saying you can't be oppressed because no one is oppressed as the North Koreans but that you need to take a look at the way the whole thought policing of what people can and can't say is, as Gary Linekar would put it "is not dissimilar" to what goes on in North Korea whilst obviously not being as bad as nor to the extent of what goes on in North Korea. The issue being (as with current political language at times not being dissimilar to the language of early thirties Germany) that we never start out all guns blazing. Authoritarian regimes have to first appeal to the masses and then bit by bit take away rights from this one, then that one, then the other until, oh no, everyone's rights have been taken away.

Clearly, gender ideology is different to all of the above but it has moments of similarity. Cancelling, as in literally cancelling (usually) women's rights to speak at certain venues and preventing films being shown that don't adhere to the ideology, policing language which in turn polices thought and blah.

[NotDrowningJustCrowing]

In other news, on a very personal level here, today my neighbour was at mine to meet my cats, the youngest of whom runs away from people but not from my neighbour. It was really lovely. I've not lived here long but met my neighbour on the first day and we've spoken since. I was aware/thought(?) that they were either nonbinary or lesbian, although of course, the two are not mutually exclusive (which is where the whole identity/sexuality/not sexuality can get confusing). A couple of weeks ago I was chatting with her girlfriend and she referred to my neighbour as he so I got what the pronoun was. Today I was talking and I inadvertently used she when talking about the conversation with the girlfriend and also about a niece and blah and ... Neighbour was "It really doesn't matter. It's just a thing. I get it, don't worry." I was worried that I'd upset him because whatever my views are in general when it comes to an individual who I actively like I never want to cause offence. And therein lies some of the shit that TRAs fling at anyone who isn't totally politically and culturally pure. Individuals who are living their life don't necessarily want them policing other people on their behalf. Individuals who are living their lives know that their "true enemies" aren't people who have questions/concerns/doubts about the ideology but people who have no questions and just want to plough through trans people with violence and hatred.

I don't know, maybe the fact that the two trans people that I know were born women might have more than a little to do with it.

P.s. I have such lovely neighbours (three flats in the house) and I consider myself incredibly lucky!

[VicSynix]

NotDrowning - I wish there was a like button on Mumsnet but as there isn't I'll just say how much your post resonates with me. I would never, ever dream of misgendering the transwoman I know and that's partially because she doesn't give a shit about it, she just wants to live her life peacefully.

[beastlyslumber]

But it's not misgendering.

If you want to collude in a friend's fantasy, that's absolutely your choice and I'm sure your friends appreciate it.

But please don't suggest that using the correct pronouns for someone's sex is rude. A man does not become 'she' if he's really really nice. My judgement of what pronouns to use is based on sex, not personality, depth of friendship or anything else.

[MissPollysFitDolly]

@beastlyslumber

But it's not misgendering.

If you want to collude in a friend's fantasy, that's absolutely your choice and I'm sure your friends appreciate it.

But please don't suggest that using the correct pronouns for someone's sex is rude. A man does not become 'she' if he's really really nice. My judgement of what pronouns to use is based on sex, not personality, depth of friendship or anything else.

Exactly this. Correctly sexing someone (as most people have always done) is not wrong and trans activists need to understand that is what some of us prefer to continue doing.

[beastlyslumber]

I'm not being rude. Colluding in a fantasy is exactly what you're doing. You are pretending your friend has changed sex.

Does it hurt other people? YES. It does, actually. Read "Pronouns are Rohypnol." Your lies only make it harder for women like me to speak the truth without censure.

You are already calling me rude for telling the truth. Others will call me rude and put a brick through a window. All for refusing to join in with a lie.

[beastlyslumber]

Colluding in this fantasy also makes it more difficult for the women to avoid the path of transition. You are pushing them closer to medicine and surgeries.

[Moomoola]

Yes beastlyslumber abigail ahearn explains this very well in her book.

[beastlyslumber]

Do you mean Abigail Shrier? Or are you talking about a different book? If the latter, please share details!

[angelico53]

www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/we-were-wrong-pioneer-in-child-gender-dysphoria-treatment-says-trans-medical-industry-is-harming-kids/ar-AA18wUwy?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e4f85cd7225f4c18b9d8a16cec

"We were wrong", says founder of child gender clinic in Canada.

[Boiledbeetle]

@angelico53

www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/we-were-wrong-pioneer-in-child-gender-dysphoria-treatment-says-trans-medical-industry-is-harming-kids/ar-AA18wUwy?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e4f85cd7225f4c18b9d8a16cec

"We were wrong", says founder of child gender clinic in Canada.

Is anyone else just wanting to go "YES! We know you bloody Were you ejit!"

[IcakethereforeIam]

While reading the above article, I noticed this headline

www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/it-took-me-2-years-to-get-diagnosed-as-menopausal-because-i-m-in-my-30s-and-i-m-nonbinary-so-doctors-were-even-more-dismissive/ar-AA18Aa0W?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=359733997cbd4cd0ae8e03dcdee25b27&ei=64

I glad I read it early enough to have the time I'll need for all the eye rolling.

[BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn]

In other 'stating the bleedig obvious' news, to the surprise of absolutely nobody, police are reluctant to investigate their own crimes: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4762883-police-drop-most-complaints-of-officer-violence-against-women-figures-show-bbc-news

[BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn]

The cognitive dissonance of 'they took too long to diagnose me' vs 'it was awful that they insisted on doing physical examinations' must be deafening.

[CryptoFascistMadameCholet]

@IcakethereforeIam

While reading the above article, I noticed this headline

www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/it-took-me-2-years-to-get-diagnosed-as-menopausal-because-i-m-in-my-30s-and-i-m-nonbinary-so-doctors-were-even-more-dismissive/ar-AA18Aa0W?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=359733997cbd4cd0ae8e03dcdee25b27&ei=64

I glad I read it early enough to have the time I'll need for all the eye rolling.

I wonder if it has occurred to her that it’s entirely possible that the reason she feels like she is neither male or female could be related to the systemic effects of early onset ovarian insufficiency?

Dr Will Powers (a controversial US based trans doctor who doesn’t really follow WPATH) reckons that loads of young women who come to him for transmasculine testosterone treatment have pre existing PCOS and that treating the PCOS instead can make the gender dysphoria go away. Of course, that’s a very unwoke thing to say and he has been attacked by his own fans for saying it.

Rings true to me though, if only because I’ve been tracking my cycle for 15 years or so and know damn well that different hormone levels effect my energy, strength, internal sense of self and outward demeanour (big DIY and gardening jobs are best scheduled for when progesterone is highest and estrogen lowest - I can get a wardrobe upstairs single handed on three days of the month 😌)
Female athletes now train in a way that is tailored to their hormonal cycles, so it’s deffo not my imagination!

I vaguely remember a Benjamin Boyce interview with a detrans woman who had thought she was a man due to an undiagnosed tumour affecting her natural hormone production. When the tumour was diagnosed and treated, her gender dysphoria went away…

Found it!

[IcakethereforeIam]

@CryptoFascistMadameCholet that seems very plausible. Taking into account the generally accepted poor state of women's health (we're not just small men!), that Doctors are already too quick to diagnose mental health issues in women (it was on a thread), this is another barrier to effective medical diagnosis and treatment for women.

As a separate issue something seems to be kicking off on twitter. Julie Bindel did an interview on GBNews, I'm assuming about the Lesbian Project, Billy Bragg tweeted accusing her of calling all trans people paedophiles. She's given him 24 hours to get out of Dodge apologise and take it down. He might have also threatened her with legal action? Billy Bragg and MAPs both seem to be trending.

[StephanieSuperpowers]

@Boiledbeetle

Is anyone else just wanting to go "YES! We know you bloody Were you ejit!"

Yes. I'm going, "I knew that and I'm basically a half wit with no medical or psychological training of any kind! How did I know that if you didn't?"

[Boiledbeetle]

I can get a wardrobe upstairs single handed on three days of the month

interesting exercise regime you have there @CryptoFascistMadameCholet

[NotDrowningJustCrowing]

I used to really like Billy Bragg. What a huge disappointment of a misogynistic arsehole he is.

[MavisMcMinty]

He wrote perhaps my all-time favourite lyric, although it’s Kirsty MacColl’s voice I hear whenever I try and bring the words to mind:

I saw two shooting stars last night
I wished on them
But they were only satellites
It’s wrong to wish on space hardware
I wish I wish I wish you’d care

But he’s a knob on this matter, as are many otherwise good people.