Gender Critical Disputes - Radical Notion special edition free to read online

[IwantToRetire]

Cant say I have heard of Radical Notion. They say:

THE RADICAL NOTION was founded in 2020 to create a space for the resurgent wave of feminist thinking and activism. This not-for-profit magazine is run by an all-women collective of radical and socialist feminists. We are committed to the materialist analysis of sex-based oppression, and to challenging the material and symbolic structures of male dominance. This moment is a historic opportunity to deepen and widen the analysis of all aspects of women’s political condition, and its foundational role in all systems of extraction and domination.

We welcome words and images from women of all nationalities, classes, ethnicities and backgrounds to illuminate the meaning of feminist politics in their lives, and to create a global picture of this political moment. Our current battle, and the social, political and environmental unravellings we see all around us are, at their root, crises of patriarchy. We want to seize this moment to speak that truth.

theradicalnotion.org/gender-critical-disputes/

It seems quite expensive to subscribe but they have made this issue free to read online. A lot of it seems to be the ongoing antagonism (meaning the issues are real but seem to be motivated as much by personal fallouts) between radical feminist and socialist feminist gender critical women.

Some may remember this thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4662757-womens-place-uk-filia-event-the-elephant-ignored-yet-again and the revelation that WPUK seems to now be linked to the group Actual Gender Critical Left, who endlessly snipe about Karin Dansky and KJK.

Anyhow posting in case anyone wants to have a read.

Still not sure why some women think in the day of virtual opportunites to talk directly to other women, they need to go down the routed of "publishing" as though their ideas are somehow special and shouldn't be submitted to the rough and tumble on online forums like this one!

Yes, exactly. Thank you

A poster here once posted a video of an interview with Andy Ngo which in no way showed what she claimed it did. It was the cringey "Nigel Farage Talking Pints" segment that @BernardBlacksMolluscs mentioned earlier in the thread, I think.

Perhaps the thing that makes it confusing is the rigid application of labels.

Such and such a person said something racist becomes, they are a racist.
Such and such a person said something homophobic becomes, they are a homophobe.
Such and such a person said something misogynist becomes, they are a misogynist.

It muddies the waters because people may change their minds or be misunderstood, so it all becomes a bit crudely black or white and diverges from the facts available, then can quickly diverge from reality itself.

But Nicola, things aren't [whatever] because you say they are. By that argument, ironically, everything is subjective, there is no reality etc etc and where have we heard that before?

You: that's a purity spiral
Me: it's not, a purity spiral has x, y and z characteristics
You: I see a purity spiral.
Me: ....?

You can't just take a term and redefine it to mean 'anything lefter than me that I don't like'. We have to have definitions or parameters, otherwise debate is not possible.

I'm not trying to have a dig at you particularly, but this is exactly the kind of thing that I was talking about - it's a wilful refusal to engage with any view that doesn't align with yours, and what feels like, but I accept may not be, a cynical willingness to smear that view, so that you don't have to actually respond to it and encourage others not to respond to it either. It shuts down debate.

I don't know much about Matt Walsh so maybe I'm wrong. I can see he's anti abortion but I don't think that makes him a misogynist. Maybe I don't know enough to say either way.

But Andy Ngo is lovely. And very brave. And supports women and reports fairly on our events.

I also like Jordan Peterson. I loved his self help book - it really helped me. He's a good guy.

I guess I reserve names like misogynist or homophobe for those who I see/hear saying or doing hateful things. It doesn't mean I love them and think they're perfect people! But there's a lot of accusations of hatred and bigotry levelled towards people who really just aren't "woke".

Yes please answer these simple, straightforward questions @BloodAndFire @ClearMoth the discussion will go nowhere unless you do, at the moment all you are doing is making vague accusations and constantly drifting off the subject.

Clarity would be gained by answering these questions.

Yes, exactly.

I am no fan of CRT but even I find the idea that you are the arbiter of what is and isn't racism insane.

Imagine: "I think I've become very cynical about people making accusations of misogyny, as they're so frequently bollocks"

I think KJK’s friendly pisstake out of MW’s sexism is brilliant here:

We engaged for threads and threads over two whole weeks after KJK went to Brighton.

I like looking for patterns in human behaviour and I’m sad that some of the negative patterns I see elsewhere, nominally on the left (but left/right is getting increasingly meaningless anyway) in some of the feminist groups and feminist academics I used to look up to but now see as a bit cringey.

I don’t really care what you think of me or whether you are willing to recognise these patterns yourself, but after the long and contradictory post you made on the Mermaids thread I (wrongly) assumed you were actually interested in this particular topic.

I see now that you aren’t really interested in looking at the behaviours that destroy well meaning orgs over and over again and working out how to prevent them, you are just another finger wagger who identifies as my representation.

Fingerwag away, Winter.

I’ll be in another thread looking at interesting contemporary phenomenon rather than rehashing the same arguments we did for a fortnight post Brighton.

Putting down my prediction now, the EDI Vampire will eat Filia within 18 months.

Such and such a person said something racist becomes, they are a racist.
Such and such a person said something homophobic becomes, they are a homophobe.
Such and such a person said something misogynist becomes, they are a misogynist.

Such and such a person hit his wife just the once becomes, they are a domestic abuser.

Jesus, those labels eh? Fucking it up for everyone.

@WinterDeWinter was your wish ever granted?

Can we have a Wanker's Corner? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/554455-can-we-have-a-wanker-s-corner

Hitting someone is pretty unequivocal isn’t it?

Thats not the same as these other things which can often be down to interpretation or perspective.

We engaged for threads and threads over two whole weeks after KJK went to Brighton.

Bloody hell, my memory is worse than I thought. If that's the case and I put forward a strong opinion 'against' at that point I'm very sorry for saying that I haven't ever done so. Mortified. In my defence I genuinely haven't been able to come to a conclusion on it - I've been on both sides at different moments, and this must have been one where I was feeling particularly strongly. Sorry.

Hahaha love it!

As Victoria Smith wrote:

A mother who is anything other than a regressive stereotype is a threat to those whose identities are founded on not becoming her. “Easier by far to hate and reject a mother outright than to see beyond her to the forces acting upon her,” wrote Adrienne Rich. “But where a mother is hated to the point of matrophobia there may also be a deep underlying pull toward her, a dread that if one relaxes one’s guard one will identify with her completely.”

Bullying your mum isn't activism

The reason the academics hate KJK is that she says in plain words what they took years and years and hundreds of thousands of words to say.

She is dead right when she asks where they fuck were they when they were infiltrating academia. I'd love them to actually answer her rather than dedicate a whole edition of a quarterly about [slagging] her [off] and give it away for free [because nobody is buying that any more].

@beastlyslumber

I don't know much about Matt Walsh so maybe I'm wrong. I can see he's anti abortion but I don't think that makes him a misogynist. Maybe I don't know enough to say either way.

The definition of misogyny is the crucial one here. Some interpret it as visceral hate of women, and Walsh is probably that kind of a feminist. But he is a believer in traditional sex roles, the superiority of the man over the woman (he views the home as paid for him and his, ignoring the question if the wife has bought it or paid half of it and ignoring the value of domestic labour and so on). There is no exact term for the kinds of men who largely view the place of women and girls from a consistent angle of how they can please men, but that's the kind of a person he is.

He recently tweeted that all a man wants, the simple creature that he is, is to come home after a long day at work to the dinner simmering on the cooker, and the wife and children showing gratitude. This presupposes that either the wife didn't just come back from a hard day of work (most did) or that the work she is doing at home is somehow not relevant for gratitude or that the earnings he is bringing home is the central thing in determining gratitude. It also links his views to traditional sex roles.

Some links to his views from the past:

medium.com/the-polis/the-continuing-sexism-of-matt-walsh-d0bd52cd847d

www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/9/8/2050970/-Perennial-sexist-host-Matt-Walsh-launches-sexist-rant-against-women-in-sports-broadcasting-jobs

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/male-privilege-sexism-katie-anthony-kate-walsh-twitter-spaces-in-the-home-a8339581.html

Did you even read this back before you posted? People can say stupid shit (you should know that) and change their minds or be misunderstood. Can't really misinterpret a fist in the face, can you? Why would you draw an equivalence between these things? It's a bit insulting tbh.

Yes. She is just so bloody accessible. I could easily half-listen to one of her rants while I was doing something else and get the gist. I can’t be arsed to invest the time in understanding people who expect so much of my attention and concentration to understand their point of view. And this isn’t me being anti-academic or some such thing. People who really want to be understood speak clearly, even academics.

Okay, I believe you that Matt Walsh is at the very least a sexist if not a full blown misogynist. I still quite like him, though. He's funny.

Honestly I don't do offence archaeology or purity spirals. I'm not that interested in him!

Wouldn’t that be nice!

Gosh, that's a looong way back @Ereshkigalangcleg : 2008 - you must care a lot lot lot😍
No, my request for a place to talk about wankery/cultural theory with sluice-able floor etc was never granted. I think they might have seen my tongue in my cheek and it put them off.

Because words are literal violence Beastly!

Just didn’t think we’d hear that argument from someone who identifies as a REAL FEMINIST.

Yes, I think he can be funny. I think many people are funny who I don't agree with on specific political issues.