Sunak: "I know what a woman is – an adult human female"

[escapingthecity]

I know it's a Mail link but I've not seen it up anywhere else yet:

Rishi Sunak wades into trans debate saying 'biological sex matters'
mol.im/a/11707375

Glad to see him taking a clear position.

I am in SE Asia at the moment and have just had lunch with an old friend, a journalist of Indian origin. She is very proud that Britain now has a "brown" PM, and explained that both Rishi and his wife come from families of strong women.

The Murtys are interesting. The IT firm that created their wealth was only founded in 1981, with an inital capital of 250 dollars. His mother in law was a rare female engineer and landed her first job with a telephone company by writing to the Chairman complaining about the firm's policy of only recruiting male engineers. She met her husband there and apparently gave him the money to start the firm. The family, especially the mother, are apparently respected in India for being modest and philanthropic. At the same time Rishi's maternal grandmother is credited with selling her jewellery to enable the family to move to the UK from East Africa, whilst his mother runs her own pharmacy business.

Add in two daughters, and his willingness to appoint several women to his cabinet and there is every reason to assume that Rishi is both comfortable around women, and knows that women are adult human females.

Like his politics or not, I am sure Rishi gets it. Most people do.

I also don't think his statement was opportunistic. Nicola forced the issue by rushing through her legislation, seemingly seeking to create a confrontation with Westminster. Easy then for Rishi to clarify his straightforward and uncontroversial views. Leaving the obvious question. Why can't Kier do the same?

Your last sentence; do you mean using the “gender” toilets they belong to or the opposite “gender”

Do you mean to ask how would a man feel about using the mens toilets, or the womens toilets? He should feel odd using the ladies toilets. If he has a penis, he is therefore male so should be using the male toilets.

oooh I don’t know @LemonBounce imagine being a woman and reading posts from TW who think womanhood can be reduced ti a costume of heels & lipstick, or posts from TW complaining that lesbians won’t date them or posts from TW saying “enjoy your erasure” to women

how do TW feel? I couldn’t give a fuck how men feel. I’m far more vested in how women feel at being reduced to a set of feelings and ideas in a man’s head

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3762900-puberty-blocker-drug-firm-donated-cash-to-lib-dem-s-the-times

Puberty blocker producers definitely donated to the Lib Dems.

We're talking about the safety, dignity and comfort of women and girls. Trans people's toilet/prison/hospital arrangements are not, and shouldn't be, for women to resolve. Women are not human shields for men so whatever arrangements are made, they must not impact on females in any way whatsoever.

i need to get my bingo card out!

trans ppl obviously exist as they occupy mass in time and space

are they the opposite sex? nope

^^ ♥️👍

LemonBounce · Today 10:33
I'm interested in what you've said here.
Could you clarify do you think that trans people don't really exist?

I never said trans people don’t exist anywhere in my post.

On the contrary, I was specifically mentioning transpeople’s existence every time I referenced ‘the minority’.

Perhaps you were confused by the fact that I Implied transpeople remain the sex they are born regardless of their identity with a non-aligned gender,

and this has - in certain circumstances which I gave a few examples of - an impact on 50% of the population made up of women (sex female, sex biological; nothing related to identity).

Some years back, a transwoman came on here to tell us that they'd been to the women's pool at Hampstead because friends had encouraged it, and 'nobody had minded'.

This person actually listened and took on board the comments on here that any women who minded had probably quietly left, keeping their upset to themselves that they now had nowhere male-free to go. The poster even said, IIRC, that they'd never thought about that. When directly asked 'Would you do it again?', they said no, they'd use the mixed pool.

I was cheered by that. It's a kind and decent response to having been rather unthinking before.

@Needmoresleep that’s very interesting.

I like Rishi Sunak and think he will be a good Prime Minister and he will be good for the U.K.

I will add to the rest of the posts answering this.

"Why aren't people more angry about other things like the gender pay gap and domestic violence?"

It is the SEX pay gap borne from people with a female body, that being the one that has been formed around the production of large gametes, regardless of whether that body has, will or is producing those large gametes, being negatively discriminated against because of their body.

However, at the moment there now lacks clarity in this discussion. Because if you have a mature male transitioner in a senior position in an organisation, this will skew the statistics. Get enough of them in a small sector that is predominantly male, and the level of discrimination is hidden or can be seen as going in a falsified direction.

Look at boards that are supposedly 'sex balanced'. There was one not so long ago that had 75% male representation. The latest Scottish case was shown that the EA wording allowed this to be accepted.

Why would you (general you) allow something that should be one of the priorities to be then diffused by the inclusion of people that should have their very own goals and monitoring to make sure they are not discriminated against?

I don't believe I have ever seen a poster say that trans people need to have campaigns to fight employment discrimination, just that male people should be considered male where it counts. And for every instance that sex matters in the work place.

Domestic violence is another area you mentioned. Absolutely domestic violence is important to fight and to provide support for. How do you do this when males are then included in the very support that a victim who is a female person who needs to be away from all males at that time? In shelters, in support groups. Some women are fine with it. But why would you (general you) advocate for a solution that excludes the very women and girls that need those spaces to remain single sex.

And messaging. If you remove the use in messaging of plain English terms of woman and girl and use generic terms such as 'people who experience domestic violence', you will exclude some of those most vulnerable due to language barriers. Better to have targeted messaging, with multiple applications of that message in a campaign than make it an all size fits approach.

Statistics apply here too. Why would you (general you) collect statistics that may make trans people and their needs hidden? And increase statistics for women? It is really important to have clarity and accuracy so the correct support can be developed to meet the needs of everyone.

However, it is the support of domestic violence victims that require the specific needs of women and children that needs a very clear definition of what a woman is.

Imagine if you were trans yourself - how would you feel about having to use the toilets of the other gender, how would you feel reading this thread?

I would try to understand their point of view, especially if people were also saying, as is often the case, that there need to be third spaces for transpeople.

There's a fancy word for whatabouting. When you are concerned about something and someone asks why aren't you concerned about some otehr things instead. It's called "Relative Privation". It's a logical fallacy just like a Strawman which is probably the most famous of the logical fallacies.
academy4sc.org/video/fallacy-of-relative-privation-all-problems-are-relative/

So many good posts, but this one especially.
Come on Starmer, get a grip. Speak out for safeguarding children, women's rights & facts and let's get on with being able to vote for Labour to replace this shambles of a government

I guess I'd hope to be someone like the TW who posted this and the ones who started the petition it's about - clearly understanding the difference between sex (which is what loos, sports etc etc are/should be divided by) and gender.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/3752551-Petition-for-third-spaces-Fionne-Miranda

"Imagine if you were trans yourself - how would you feel about having to use the toilets of the other gender, how would you feel reading this thread?"

Imagine infantilising trans people and removing their ability to make decisions that show they respect other people (again a general statement)

We know people who have trans identities that still use the toilets, changing rooms and services set aside for their sex or find alternative solutions for their needs. Why is it that some people (general statement) feel that once transitioned males know and understand that their presence in a service created to be single sex may cause some women or girls distress that they would not seek alternative solutions? Why do some people only take the extremist activist's view on this to the detriment of the needs of those women and children who need single sex services to remain single sex?

There also seems to be the constant avoidance of the fact that female people are more likely to correctly sex male people. Of course, due to the effects of testosterone, it is not as accurate for all females. Once a male moves, their body proportions are discernible, their facial proportions are visible, their gait is seen and of course, their voice, it is likely that a woman or girl encountering male in a toilet would accurately sex them. This is what spreading misinformation does. The myth of passing.

A male who has had their face peeled right back, their facial bones shaved, their hairline adjusted, implants added, the space between their nose and their lips adjusted and their Adams apple shaved, may make it harder to pick. But it is likely that movement in that case will be the cue that will cause the brain to identify that person as male.

So to answer this question: how would you feel about having to use the toilets of the other gender, how would you feel reading this thread?

I would answer that I would seek to understand why my presence caused distress and I would be saddened to feel that I might have unintentionally done this. I would then do what other trans people have done and find another solution.

Imagine if you were trans yourself - how would you feel about having to use the toilets of the other gender, how would you feel reading this thread?

I answered before but wanted to add this suggestion:

Please may we not use the American euphemism ‘gender’ for sex?

We obviously know the toilets aren’t ‘having sex’ and so there is no need for this silly coy word that has caused so much confusion.

It is muddling to refer to toilets of the ‘other gender’ for this question imo.

The issue being discussed arises on the basis of the idea of sex based segregation for toilets (/male/female/biology/physiology).

I love that. I am going to use this because it is much more accurate. Thank you.

Why aren't people more angry about other things like the gender pay gap and domestic violence?

Its perfectly possible to be angry about more than one thing at a time.

(Personally I don’t like the use of the word gender in any context where sex or sex based would be more accurate, such as the above.)

You are a fool if you think people are too bothered about whether he thinks it, it just acting on and normalising it.

He will be doing it for votes of course, but for what it’s worth I suspect he does think it.

Where the fuck did the post you quoted indicate that Scrolling thinks that trans people don't really exist?

That there is either a bad faith interpretation based again on your demonstrated prejudice about people posting on this board, or you have resorted to using catastrophic and jumping to conclusion cognitive distortions.

Please explain why you have interpreted Scrolling's post in this way.

Thank you for posting this about Rishi Sunak. I knew he had 2 young daughters and a successful smart wife so I did think the issue mattered to him. But I had no idea about the strong women in his background! Fascinating.

Needmoresleep · Today 10:44
I am in SE Asia at the moment and have just had lunch with an old friend, a journalist of Indian origin. She is very proud that Britain now has a "brown" PM, and explained that both Rishi and his wife come from families of strong women…...

That and all the rest you wrote is interesting to know, thank you.

I am not surprised. Indian families have often been far ahead of us in educating girls to a very high standard in stem subjects.

ErrolTheDragon· Today 11:20
Thank you for that petition about third space which was started by transpeople.

I have signed it.
✍️& 📣📣📣
www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/3752551-Petition-for-third-spaces-Fionne-Miranda