Sunak: "I know what a woman is – an adult human female"

[escapingthecity]

I know it's a Mail link but I've not seen it up anywhere else yet:

Rishi Sunak wades into trans debate saying 'biological sex matters'
mol.im/a/11707375

Glad to see him taking a clear position.

not you absurdly claiming you ‘put those concerns to bed’.

should be

not as you absurdly claim you ‘putting those concerns to bed’.

What fools you are. You honestly think Rishi gives a shit about this?

They have spin doctors for this very reason.

He has daughters and he's not thick.

There seems a lot of concern about data accuracy. I hope this has put those concerns to bed.

This is such a ridiculous thing to say. You can't carry of "condescending" when you're as dumb as a box of hair. I'm fucking mortified for you. Stop it.

Ah okay so not the big dataset - the smaller ones?
Most of the smaller ones you'd lack the statistical power to do any meaningful analysis, tbh. Certainly you wouldn't be able to look at the contributions of multiple factors - which is what you'd need to do to understand the pay gap.

Why do you think trans people are mind-blowingly more successful than average (which they'd have to be to skew the data)? We know they face discrimination so in all likelihood they will also experience workplace inequality.

Anyway the pay gap is analysed in quartiles especially at the organisational level so the analysis issues you mention simply wouldn't arise.

Hope this does put it to bed. This data accuracy point is not 'pro women' (as it would not have any meaningful effect). It's just transparently anti trans, but for no good reason?

“Why do you think trans people are mind-blowingly more successful than average (which they'd have to be to skew the data)? We know they face discrimination so in all likelihood they will also experience workplace inequality.”

Because we know that mature male transitioners exist. Are you denying they exist? Are you denying that some of these are men who have well established careers and transition? That they are IT managers, barristers, university professors, financiers, surgeons, doctors, members of boards, owners of businesses, consultants?

Because that would be a novel approach.

No one denies they face discrimination unique to their situation. However, it is not the same discrimination that female employees face. I know very well that even with all we know, girls are harmed by discrimination at young ages. Some of that discrimination comes from their peers with ‘girl’s don’t do that’ type of questioning which shapes girl’s choices. That is not something that a boy faces. But in some cases girls have faced it since birth.

So I don’t believe you can even claim that younger male transitioners experience the same discrimination.

“Most of the smaller ones you'd lack the statistical power to do any meaningful analysis, tbh. Certainly you wouldn't be able to look at the contributions of multiple factors - which is what you'd need to do to understand the pay gap.”

Really? how about you give some actual examples of your thinking here.

Because all I have seen from you is a couple of sentences refuting any post and then the refrain “Hope this does put it to bed.” Never anything convincing.

And as usual a kicker at the end

”This data accuracy point is not 'pro women' (as it would not have any meaningful effect). It's just transparently anti trans, but for no good reason?”

This is a typical tactic that has been used on the FWR board regularly. It is not new.

So how about you explain at some length. With examples.

I doubt any poster is going to continue to engage with you if you follow this pattern.

Is LemonBounce an AI text bot?

I almost posted that same question yesterday. It is like being botted. It very much feel like bot style behaviour. or, it is someone who has superficial concepts and believes everyone else is just ignorant. I came across that this week too. Several times.

I thought I would give it one more try in the wee hours to see. Lemon may have some legitimate points that may be posted soon.

Is LemonBounce an AI text bot?

AI has improved a lot in the very recent past, so... no. Not that coherent.

😁

Anyone else notice that the ‘and domestic violence’ issues that supposedly were some kind of gotcha has disappeared??!

Almost like it was a throw stuff against the wall and see what sticks rather than a poster who actually has put some serious critical thinking and a wide range of reading into the topic…

There is a disconnect somewhere. Not unusual for posters who cannot actually engage with the topic.

It's been shocking to notice over the last year that the only party who are stating facts about who women are is the Conservatives. In Scotland this makes me either unable to use my vote or a Tory voter. I'm politically homeless having been an Independence supporter all my life I now have nowhere to go with my vote. This is crazy.

The pay gap is largely down to reproductive role, it's not mainly about discrimination at all, so not relevant to transwomen. It's a good example how misunderstanding what it actually means materially comes out of not looking carefully at accurate data, and assuming disparities are always rooted in some kind of bigoted attitudes.

It is greatly influenced by the reproductive role which cannot be detached from being a major source of negative sexist discrimination.

But yes, the discrimination experienced by male employees with trans identities is not the same as experienced by female employees.

You've asked for an example explained at length, which I have done. This data accuracy point is not a matter of opinion, it's just statistics so i have nothing further to add. If your response is to question my data expertise good luck to you 😉

Thanks for your responses though it has been interesting.

The kicker for me is that it's not a zero sum game and women's rights don't need to come at the expense of other groups. In many cases (the gender data being just one example) there isn't even a conflict. It's like those people saying economic growth is not compatible with climate action. If we block rights and equality for other groups we are losing something important.

I do think it's important to hear other viewpoints - this forum feels a bit lacking in diversity of opinion but apparently i am the bot. Haha 😊

He does know what a woman is.

A woman is more likely to be a nurse and work a utterly gruelling job for an unfair wage.

This man does not care about women. He cares about drasticating from his travesty of a government.

Agreed!

“You've asked for an example explained at length, which I have done. This data accuracy point is not a matter of opinion, it's just statistics so i have nothing further to add. If your response is to question my data expertise good luck to you”

oh. Right…. I have checked each of your posts and I must have missed where you have explained anything at length, let alone any examples. Is it an error, and you thought you had? or it is a dishonest claim?

Your claims seem to lack substance and logic. And you cannot seem to articulate anything convincing. Despite your constant doubling down that you have.

I think if you had anything to offer except for what seems like throw away comments, you would have been able to clearly explain and give numerous examples that showed how it all supported your claims.

You seem to not be able to do this.

”The kicker for me is that it's not a zero sum game and women's rights don't need to come at the expense of other groups.”.

You have this arse about. No rights for males should come at the expense of women and girl’s rights.

”In many cases (the gender data being just one example) there isn't even a conflict”

And I think you seem to lack the ability to critically evaluate that.

For instance, didn’t you assert quite strongly that domestic violence protection wasn’t impacted? Really? What happened to that one? You never responded.

So no. There are not ‘many’ cases where there isn’t even a conflict at all.

”this forum feels a bit lacking in diversity of opinion but apparently i am the bot. Haha”

Maybe you are used to posting on forums where you repeat trope and people believe it?

The kicker for me is that it's not a zero sum game and women's rights don't need to come at the expense of other groups. In many cases (the gender data being just one example) there isn't even a conflict.

This is the fundamental issue. One that underlies the womens concerns and is addressed in just about every thread.

There is no conflict between LGB and woman’s rights. There is a very real conflict between TQ rights and womens rights. LGB describes sexual attraction. TQ is about gender identity. A completely different thing. Women want their own sex based spaces, and other thinks like there right to data around sex including the pay gap. TQ want access to those spaces for men who identify as women.

The problem is not the lack of diversity of opinion. Instead you do not seem to grasp the basis of women’s concerns. This in not the #nodebate of Stonewall et al, demanded because they had no argument to address the conflict. This is #nodebate of lemonbounce because lemonbounce does not understand the issue.

It's not TQ+ rights. It's demands. Wholly unreasonable demands that mean others lose their rights, and protection for the vulnerable is removed.

Demand is a good way to phrase it.

For instance. Let’s look at the right for females to hand sport’s categories to enable them to compete fairly because they cannot compete with males with any pubertal advantage.

The demand by males is that they get to compete with the people they identify as. Their ‘right’ on the other hand, is to be able to compete fairly without discrimination. It is not to compete as their chosen identity. Sport is not categorised by identity. But by categories that allow fair competition. Any male who chooses a treatment for any condition that reduces their performance, needs to make the same choices as any other male.

But the female category is not the consolation prize for performance suppressed males.

Let’s look at single sex spaces. Women and girls have the right to safety and privacy and dignity from males because there is a risk that males will cause harm.

A group of males demand to access female single sex spaces for safety and their emotional comfort. However, they don’t have the right for that access. They have a right for safety and privacy but NOT access to female single sex spaces. That last part is their demand.

Women’s rights are absolutely discriminatory and come at the exclusion of male people in many instances. Because sex based rights are discriminatory. However, a subset of males never had access to those rights in the first place. They obviously demanded them but they are not their rights.

As they never had claim to female sex based rights, those rights don’t ‘come at the expense’ of males with trans indentities.

This trickery needs to stop. It is tedious.

I am delighted that Sunak has said he knows what a woman is now. It puts paid to the lie "at least the Tories know what a woman is"🙄 that's been doing the rounds on here for years.

I am delighted that Sunak has said he knows what a woman is now.

Has Sunak (or have other recent Tory leaders) said that TWAW then? Or said things similar to Starmer's 'It's not right to say that only women have a cervix'?

The default assumption is that all grown adults know what a woman is, unless, like many of the Labour leadership, they make it clear they don’t.

Really interesting to see the latest yougov poll of Scottish voters observe a significant decline in the support for the SNP over the last month. A six percent decline in such a short space of time spells trouble for Sturgeon. It seems that increased sunlight on gender extremism not only demonstrates the scale of institutional capture on a issue that two thirds of the population disagree with but it demonstrates the kind of upside down logic that erodes trust capital on broader issues because in the last month alone there has been a significant decline in support for an independent Scotland.

So a big fat bollocks to the idea that nobody cares.

This