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Petitions and activism

Petition for third spaces - Fionne & Miranda

41 replies

Hamster00 · 25/11/2019 12:08

I think this is a wonderful idea. Finally a bit of sense. Feel free to sign and circulate.
www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transgender-men-and-women


We are Fionne Orlander and Miranda Yardley, both of us transwomen. We recognise that we, as transwomen, are biologically male; we are not the same as women and our lives differ from those lived by women. We are asking you to support our call for the provision of Third Spaces for transgender individuals of both sexes.

We as transwomen share concerns with women, we share a need for dignity and privacy when using public spaces such as washrooms and changing rooms, and specifically we are concerned about the risk to us of abusive behaviour and physical and sexual assault when sharing single-sex spaces with other males.

In recognising our lives are different from women’s lives, we recognise and support single sex spaces for women, and support the right of women’s organisations under the Equality Act to provide services exclusively to women and girls, who may in a number of circumstances have lived under fear of or experienced physical or sexual violence at the hands of men, who overwhelmingly commit the majority of physical and sexual violence.

In recognition that women should have access to single sex spaces, and in recognition of our own concern and fear of using single sex spaces designated for males, we call on all political parties to recognise the need for the provision of publicly funded third spaces for transgender individuals of either sex, to allow us to participate fully in public life without imposing ourselves on those single sex places presently enjoyed by women.

Specifically we call for publicly funded Third Spaces in respect of the following:

  • Public washrooms and changing rooms, including those at schools, leisure centres and other publicly funded institutions;
  • Hospital wards and other NHS facilities that are presently single sex;
  • Prisons, remand centres and all other parts of HM Prison Service;
  • For the provision of relief centres for transgender individuals who have been physically or sexually assaulted, or who are fleeing or need protection from abusive partners.

    Please commit to providing Third Spaces for transgender people of either sex.

    Thank you

    Fionne Orlander
OP posts:
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ErrolTheDragon · 25/11/2019 12:14

Thanks for posting this, hamster.
It will doubtless get moved over to the petitions board.

One thing to note, there was a similar thread last night but it's been deleted because apparently it contained potentially identifying information. No idea what, but obvious try to avoid that.

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theflushedzebra · 25/11/2019 12:23

Potentially identifying information? Grin what, like the names of the people publicly promoting the petition?

I've signed.

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Hamster00 · 25/11/2019 12:23

Oops! I didn't know there was a petitions board.

I wasn't aware of the identifying info thing either Confused.

Sorry MN moderator people!

OP posts:
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ErrolTheDragon · 25/11/2019 12:34

I don't know what the issue was - maybe someone belatedly realised they shouldn't have signed non-anonymously and simultaneously posted 'signed' here.

Hardly anyone does know there's a Petitions board, hamster, but it's MN policy that all petition links get moved there. Unless they're kept bumped into Active Convos or people are alerted by other means, they tend to languish there. I think it's meant as an anti spamming tactic, but it's not very helpful for serious petitions.

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LangCleg · 25/11/2019 12:44

The original link had a Twitter referral in it and it displayed the person's IRL name in a pop up.

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Michelleoftheresistance · 25/11/2019 12:48

Fantastic! Signed and shared.

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Inebriati · 25/11/2019 12:49

No its ok; you post it here otherwise people wont see it.
And the other link was removed because it included the Twitter handle of the person who shared it.

So remember when you share or archive a link, to only use the the URL and remove any other info - its usually the bit that comes after a question mark, like this;

website.com/1234?fbclientblahdeblah

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Cascade220 · 25/11/2019 12:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/11/2019 12:59

My take is that while they're brave enough to use the gents, some TW aren't. Third spaces provide a concrete solution to the problem of trans rights v women's rights (except of course for 'validation'). And it's not just loos - they're asking for provision in hospitals, prisons and refuges, which really do need serious consideration.

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Cascade220 · 25/11/2019 13:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/11/2019 13:09

I don't think so.
Provision is based on sex, but within the group 'Male' there is a subgroup who may need a further division of that group. Nowt to do with women.

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Hellmistress · 25/11/2019 13:09

Signed using my real name.

God bless you both, Fionne and Miranda

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TirisfalPumpkin · 25/11/2019 13:11

In an ideal world, absolutely. The problem is men and how they react to GNC bodies.

I will admit to feeling both admiring and uncomfortable at the selfie of Fionne in a little floral dress and full face of makeup in the gents. Fionne is confident enough to put off ‘aren’t you in the wrong room?’ enquiries, but I worry about how a really homophobic man would react. I want TWs to be safe.

It’s not women’s problem to solve, though, which is I think what Fionne and Miranda are attempting to achieve here. In an ideal world, they should both 100% use the gents and be safe doing so. In the world we have, can we say they would be?

I’m not completely persuaded on the best long term fix, but this seems reasonable in the short to mid term. As long as it doesn’t come at the expense of disabled, or by ‘repurposing’ half the women’s, etc etc

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ErrolTheDragon · 25/11/2019 13:15

If there's any repurposing, obviously it should be part of the mens.

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PencilsInSpace · 25/11/2019 13:20

I've been saying for ages that it's not women's job to sort out where everyone has a piss and so if trans people don't want to use the facilities provided for their sex then it's up to them to campaign for alternatives.

So I'm pleased to see this. I don't care if tw use the gents or additional third spaces. If they're not in the ladies it's not really my business.

I think it will only be a success if it gets lots of signatures from trans people though. A petition by MY and FO (who use men's facilities anyway) and signed mostly by women will not have much clout.

I wish them luck though and I think it's quite a brave thing to do. The TRAs really won't like it.

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Michelleoftheresistance · 25/11/2019 13:25

The TRAs really won't like it.

On the plus side, that puts in plain sight: this is not about anyone's safety, privacy and dignity.

This is solely about removing all boundaries for biological males who wish to be able to be women, with women, for a wide range of agendas. Regardless of any and all impact on biological females.

Those supporting this are simply supporting the subordination of biological females to biological males, regardless of the damage to females, including ones with other protected characteristics. Which is of no relevance or interest, proving the subordination/women are subhuman belief underpinning it.

MRA/Male supremacy. Own it.

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refusetobeasheep · 25/11/2019 13:34

signed.

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ErrolTheDragon · 25/11/2019 13:34

By 'this' do you mean TRAs and apologists for males using female services, rather than supporting the ideas in the petition, Michelle?

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Antibles · 25/11/2019 13:47

Agree Spartacus. I'm not sure about this.

It supports belief in the concept, the validation of which is causing women a lot of problems.

Do we seriously want to put a legal obligation on every institution across the country to create separate provision for biological males who feel they are women? (and presumably vice versa, unless they are campaigning for trans males and females to share). This is what is being asked. It's a massive validation for a controversial concept.

Trying to be kind is what got us into the mess with the GRA's legal fiction and opened the door to the current situation. I can't see this helping.

Every single public organisation would be obliged to create two new rooms with appropriate signage. Your children will walk past this signage every day of their lives and have the whole concept of men-who-are-women and women-who-are-men formalised and normalised by this. Sign the petition only if this is what you are happy with.

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Michelleoftheresistance · 25/11/2019 13:47

'This' - the campaign to force all single sex spaces to become mixed sex.

Sorry for the lack of clarity, at times the fury gets to me .

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OhHolyJesus · 25/11/2019 14:03

I've signed as I want a third space and I want one because TW don't belong in the women's loos because of their sex and TW don't feel welcome and/or feel unsafe in the men's and when you gotta go you gotta go.

I've seen interviews where TW refuse to use a third space as it would 'out' them and we all know how validating an experience it is to use the ladies. I'm pleased to see this petition come from MY and FO as both say they are male and frankly I can't see any other solution.

(I'd love to expand what it means to be a man and make it possible for men to budge up but so far that isn't happening and no one is really tackling male pattern violent behaviour so this is the best solution possible to make everyone comfortable for now at least.)

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KatvonHostileExtremist · 25/11/2019 14:17

Makes sense to me! Thanks for sharing !

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PencilsInSpace · 25/11/2019 14:22

Every single public organisation would be obliged to create two new rooms with appropriate signage.

Not really. For toilets all that would be required is one extra fully enclosed cubicle and the sign could just say 'toilet'. Probably lots of people would use it if they were in a hurry and it was free - thus conveniently removing the excuse that to use a 'gender neutral' toilet would 'out' a trans person.

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LikeothersIamjustme · 25/11/2019 14:45

It is this bit that concerns me "to allow us to participate fully in public life without imposing ourselves on those single sex places presently enjoyed by women."
I might be being picky but I read that unless third spaces can be created (which wont be possible everywhere) then women and others in dresses will use the ladies. Or am i missing something?

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ErrolTheDragon · 25/11/2019 15:00

I don't believe that was the intent.

I think the petitioners don't often get actively involved in MN FWR threads at least in part because they don't want to intrude on a 'women's space' - but (especially as this is liable to get moved to the neutrality of Petitions ere long) perhaps it'd make sense if they clarified themselves?

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