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Original poster

Can I be forced to use pronouns?

307 replies

nationallampoons · 31/12/2022 14:38

Hi all.

I work in hospitality and my company have recently taken on some new recruits.

One is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns but is considering she/her pronouns. He was born male. He looks male. He had the same uniform as you would expect, neon hair, piercings, multiple badges on his uniform stating his pronouns, he's vegan, free Palestine, f Boris etc.. (I'm not against freeing Palestine or vegans) but you can imagine the type. Everyone's a "facist" etc.. it's draining at times.

Here is my problem, I don't want to use they/them pronouns. It feels unnatural when talking and I struggle with it anyway. I just don't want to do it, I don't care if that makes me rude. I'm just sick of it. I'm sick of being moaned at for misgendering. He just doesn't shut up about it.

Now he's saying he believes he may be a woman and is asking questions about "women hood" and all that bs, I've told him I'm not comfortable talking to him about it and I was called a boomer, a Karen and a gammon?? He is considering changing his pronouns in the new year.

Here is my question. Legally, can I be forced to use his preferred pronouns? Not arsed about losing my job, but I don't want to get into any criminal trouble

I just want to go to work, earn my living and go home. I don't have the time or energy or willingness to go along with this bullshit

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 31/12/2022 16:48

They do not want special treatment. They want their pronouns recognised correctly.

But it is special treatment - and it's taken as tacit approval and validation of their beliefs in who or what they are. The vast, vast majority of people don't get to choose their pronouns: everyday male men and female women happily accept the correct sex-based pronouns as according to English grammar, but unless they speak out, they aren't given any choice in the matter - just like when a shop assistant addresses you as 'Sir' or 'Madam' or tells their young children to 'give the coins to the lady/man holding your sweets'.

Even with the new trend of asking everybody their pronouns (which, incidentally, a great many people find terribly insulting - especially elderly folk - but who cares about the non-special people, hey?), it isn't genuinely done in an attempt to help the 'standard' males and females but rather so that the minority can have their moment to tell everybody how special they believe they are, that they, unlike the vast majority, are far more important than centuries-old basic grammar rules.

If you've been willingly referring to a male-bodied person as 'she' for some time, how can you suddenly protest when that male-bodied person assumes the right to use the toilets or changing facilities for female-bodied people only?

"Of course you accept that Tony is female - you've been using her correct female pronouns for months. Why are you suddenly deciding to be awkward, exclusive, hateful and transphobic now? Just what is YOUR problem?"

Things that start as seemingly insignificant little 'niceties' are often a deliberate first step towards much more significant implications.

Afterfire · 31/12/2022 16:49

BellaAmorosa · 31/12/2022 16:46

You can choose your name, so of course others should use it. You cannot choose your sex, so demanding that others use a special, counterintuitive, inaccurate, awkward and ungrammatical language for you is an imposition.

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But it’s polite to listen to someone and call them what they ask to be called. That was the point I was making. Deliberately disregarding someone’s preference is just rude.

NecessaryScene · 31/12/2022 16:49

Deliberately disregarding someone’s preference is just rude.

Unless their preference is to not call men "she"?

ClitoralViolence · 31/12/2022 16:51

Afterfire · 31/12/2022 16:45

What on earth are you talking about?

Show quote history

Its the Be kind Genderwoo Klaxon. You must have set it off somehow.

Princessglittery · 31/12/2022 16:51

BellaAmorosa · 31/12/2022 16:17

@Princessglittery
I strongly disagree that insisting that others comply with a request to be referred to in a specific way is about wanting to be treated with dignity and respect. It's an expression of power. I'm not disputing that this is how HR departments see matters (you are the HR professional, not me), I'm just saying that it should not be. Why are this employee's wishes or dignity more important than his co-workers'? This is not being evenhanded. Compliance with his request should always be voluntary. Pronouns in the English language match the sex of the person (or animal) being referred to. He wants special treatment, not reasonable accommodations to enable him to do his job.

@BellaAmorosa I was purely talking about a work situation where we are obliged to follow employment laws and contractual requirements.

I am not saying anyone has to declare their pro-nouns, but if an employee/colleague asks for the pro-nouns they/them or she/her be used then it is unlikely any employment tribunal would find that request unreasonable. Potentially the employer could be found to be discriminatory for not supporting the request.

Case law means both Gender Critical and Gender Identity are protected beliefs. Neither has precedence. So employers have to strike a balance between the two. In my view respecting someone’s pro-nouns is reasonable. This is a very grey area at the moment and I expect a lot more case law will emerge indicating what is and is not reasonable at work.

My advice to the OP was to help her stay on the “right” side of the law and her employment contract enabling her to complain about the colleagues unreasonable language.

I agree there is a power play in the situation and the colleague is pushing their luck. By respecting or at least using their name or you, the OP is putting their colleague in the wrong so retaking the power.

The reality is that we cannot turn the clock back, there have always been people with gender dysphoria ( I know that is another debate) but the numbers were very small and there was in most cases dignity and respect on both sides.

People with AGP identifying under the trans umbrella appears to have been an orchestrated strategy with slow infiltration of public institutions and the media over a long period of time. We are not going to fully reverse it and it will take a long time to restore an acceptable balance.

Small wins are important which is why I would encourage everyone to sign this petition. I can’t link directly to the petition due to MN rules but I can link to the petition topic. www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668426-petition-update-the-equality-act-to-make-clear-the-characteristic-sex-is-biological-sex

BellePeppa · 31/12/2022 16:52

Afterfire · 31/12/2022 16:31

I just don’t see the harm in going along with it. That’s my personal view. My dd has two best friends who are they / them. My son has a friend who is they / them.

I do think language changes over time and I think it’s important to go along with that. If people want to be referred to as they / them then why not at least make an effort to try to accommodate that? It doesn’t mean you have to get into the whole trans / gender / sex debate if you don’t want to. It’s literally just a way of referring to someone. People are making it far more complicated than it needs to be and the only outcome is anger and hatred - for what?

Haven’t got time for the intolerance.

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Crikey, what are the odds of having so many gender confused people in your children’s social circle? Surely this should tell you that’s it’s all a lot of attention seeking nonsense by kids who don’t feel special enough to just be the sex they were born into. We all know that fifty years ago this would have not have been a thing.

It’s a fashion, a trend like the thick eyebrows girls were sporting a few years back. Unfortunately it’s a very dangerous trend. I won’t be obnoxious I’ll use their name or ‘you’ or ‘they’ but not he/she.

SirVixofVixHall · 31/12/2022 16:52

Using “they/them” etc is a signaller, it shows everyone present that you accept gender as a belief system. That affects how other people feel about speaking up, or makes people feel as though they are in the wrong for feeling uncomfortable with gender ideology. This then has an impact on public policy which is having such a detrimental affect on women.
Going along with the policing of others’ language may seem a small and insignificant thing but the ramifications are neither. This has meant women being raped in prison, women being assaulted in refuges, children who have been sexually abused being told that their abuser was a woman.
If you happily perpetuate gender nonsense then you are complicit in these things happening.

donquixotedelamancha · 31/12/2022 16:52

I just don’t see the harm in going along with it. That’s my personal view.....I do think language changes over time and I think it’s important to go along with that.

I despise this attitude. Whether it's managers trying to enforce corporate gibberish, pedophiles wanting to be called MAPs or student politicians who think 1984 sounds like a great idea, every person I've ever met who wants to control the way others speak has been either foolish or downright evil.

for what?

I want to use language to communicate meaning clearly, not to obfuscate and deceive. Does that answer the question for you @Afterfire ?

Haven’t got time for the intolerance.

Thinking someone who doesn't agree with your personal view is intolerent is ironic. I think your attitude to language represents a moral failure but completely defend your right to hold that view and to speak how you want. All OP is asking for is the same courtesy.

HarvestThyme · 31/12/2022 16:53

HauntedAbbey · 31/12/2022 14:41

Pronouns aside, if a colleague tried talking to me about a non-work related issue that I clearly stated I was uncomfortable with (for whatever reason) and they then proceeded to call me a "Karen", "boomer" or "gammon" then I'd be putting in an official complaint about their conduct.

^^Complain. His/her/their /whatever behaviour is unprofessional and discriminatory (misogynistic, ageist).

HootyMcboob76 · 31/12/2022 16:55

Where does it end then?

If I insist I want to be called Your Royal Highness, or Queen such and such, or The Right Honorable so and so, is that okay too? Are you going to respect my self imposed prefixes every time you refer to me?

Would you be an arsehole not to use that, or would you just be a regular human being who can see that I'm trying to impose my words on you and insist you use them?

I disagree with the "language changes" thing. Yes, words come into use and become commonplace, the dictionary expands all the time.
What DOESN'T happen is that the basic tenants of grammar and how sentences are constructed change.
You don't get to alter the way humans have interacted for thousands of years because you like wearing a dress.

UWhatNow · 31/12/2022 16:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OriginalTheory · 31/12/2022 17:01

BellePeppa · 31/12/2022 16:26

Just call him dear all the time. Be a dear and pass me that plate. Could you be a dear and clear that table. Thank you dear etc.

I’m thankful I haven’t had to come across this in real life but I wouldn’t want to pander to it. Not out of disrespect per se but because I don’t believe so many young people really genuinely believe they’re in the wrong body. Most just want to feel special and it’s oh so boring and conventional to just ‘be’.

I'm always pretty amused (in a sort of "you've gotta laugh or cry" way) when someone comments "I've never come across x y or z but I don't believe that x y or z is a thing". Unlike BellePeppa I do know, in person, a number of actually trans individuals and I am very sure that not a single one of them is doing it for the fun or of it, or to be "different", or for a fad, or, god forbid, (as so many on here seem to think) to enable them to sneak into women's toilets and assault them (ffs). And every single one of them, given the choice, would have preferred to have been born "normal" - in a body and gender that they feel comfortable in, so they could simply BE and not have to spend their entire lives fighting against discrimination and stereotypes and cruel and dismissive words from family, "friends" and strangers alike.

...

And whilst that is a slight segue from the actual topic of the thread, I'd ask you, OP, whether it is really so hard to just use "they" and "them"? As others have mentioned - it would be considered rude to call someone by a name that wasn't theirs, even if you found it hard to remember or pronounce or even if you thought it was a stupid name for some reason - it's not about necessarily getting it right all the time but more about demonstrating that you are willing to try (and not simply dismiss it, which may not be what you've been doing but certainly is the sentiment that comes across in your post). It may not come naturally at first but the singular "they" has been part of the English language for a very long time (Shakespeare was known to use it, for example).The alternative suggestion of always referring to them by name is also a decent one and has the advantage of continuing to work if they choose to move to a different pronoun later.

I don't disagree that it sounds like the individual you're dealing with is now acting in ways which are unprofessional (and I don't disagree with the other posters who suggest logging what's been said when, in case that does continue) so I can understand your frustration - but perhaps consider theirs as well, particularly if this was in fact all started by you repeatedly and willfully misgendering them?

Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 17:02

ClitoralViolence · 31/12/2022 16:43

Clitoral Violence

Show quote history

More tea vicar☕nice slice of cake 🍰

BellaAmorosa · 31/12/2022 17:03

Afterfire · 31/12/2022 16:49

But it’s polite to listen to someone and call them what they ask to be called. That was the point I was making. Deliberately disregarding someone’s preference is just rude.

Show quote history

It isn't rude to refuse to refer to someone as something they are not.
And what about my preference to not participate in what I regard as damaging foolishness? Doesn't that count?

SilverGlitterBaubles · 31/12/2022 17:06

I cannot get the use of they/ them as it refers to more than one person or the plural and seems to make zero sense in terms of speech. When someone is insistent I will go along with it but I just don't get the use of they/ them to refer to a singular person.

Afterfire · 31/12/2022 17:07

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

And you think I need to educate myself.

I’m so grateful that the real world (ie not Mumsnet) is more progressive and rational.

BIGLYLETTERSMUM · 31/12/2022 17:10

ClitoralViolence · 31/12/2022 16:43

Clitoral Violence

Show quote history

Ah, that's so pretty.

I like to see the bigly letters power well used.

It cheers me.

Waitwhat23 · 31/12/2022 17:10

OriginalTheory · 31/12/2022 17:01

I'm always pretty amused (in a sort of "you've gotta laugh or cry" way) when someone comments "I've never come across x y or z but I don't believe that x y or z is a thing". Unlike BellePeppa I do know, in person, a number of actually trans individuals and I am very sure that not a single one of them is doing it for the fun or of it, or to be "different", or for a fad, or, god forbid, (as so many on here seem to think) to enable them to sneak into women's toilets and assault them (ffs). And every single one of them, given the choice, would have preferred to have been born "normal" - in a body and gender that they feel comfortable in, so they could simply BE and not have to spend their entire lives fighting against discrimination and stereotypes and cruel and dismissive words from family, "friends" and strangers alike.

...

And whilst that is a slight segue from the actual topic of the thread, I'd ask you, OP, whether it is really so hard to just use "they" and "them"? As others have mentioned - it would be considered rude to call someone by a name that wasn't theirs, even if you found it hard to remember or pronounce or even if you thought it was a stupid name for some reason - it's not about necessarily getting it right all the time but more about demonstrating that you are willing to try (and not simply dismiss it, which may not be what you've been doing but certainly is the sentiment that comes across in your post). It may not come naturally at first but the singular "they" has been part of the English language for a very long time (Shakespeare was known to use it, for example).The alternative suggestion of always referring to them by name is also a decent one and has the advantage of continuing to work if they choose to move to a different pronoun later.

I don't disagree that it sounds like the individual you're dealing with is now acting in ways which are unprofessional (and I don't disagree with the other posters who suggest logging what's been said when, in case that does continue) so I can understand your frustration - but perhaps consider theirs as well, particularly if this was in fact all started by you repeatedly and willfully misgendering them?

Show quote history

'Actually'' trans people? Bit transphobic that, isn't it - what happened to 'acceptance without question'? Who are you to say who is 'actually' trans?

Flounder2022 · 31/12/2022 17:11

HermioneWeasley · 31/12/2022 16:30

@Afterfire it is special treatment - the pronouns we use for obviously male people are instinctive . Using incorrect pronouns requires a lot of effort, and using they/them in the singular requires mangling of grammar. “Where is Fred? They is in the kitchen”

it requires fuck all of the person asking it, and is a huge effort for everyone around them.

Numerous people in this thread has referred to her colleague as they, it's equally instinctive at times. And without mangling anything! And at most requires a little effort!

BellaAmorosa · 31/12/2022 17:11

Princessglittery · 31/12/2022 16:51

@BellaAmorosa I was purely talking about a work situation where we are obliged to follow employment laws and contractual requirements.

I am not saying anyone has to declare their pro-nouns, but if an employee/colleague asks for the pro-nouns they/them or she/her be used then it is unlikely any employment tribunal would find that request unreasonable. Potentially the employer could be found to be discriminatory for not supporting the request.

Case law means both Gender Critical and Gender Identity are protected beliefs. Neither has precedence. So employers have to strike a balance between the two. In my view respecting someone’s pro-nouns is reasonable. This is a very grey area at the moment and I expect a lot more case law will emerge indicating what is and is not reasonable at work.

My advice to the OP was to help her stay on the “right” side of the law and her employment contract enabling her to complain about the colleagues unreasonable language.

I agree there is a power play in the situation and the colleague is pushing their luck. By respecting or at least using their name or you, the OP is putting their colleague in the wrong so retaking the power.

The reality is that we cannot turn the clock back, there have always been people with gender dysphoria ( I know that is another debate) but the numbers were very small and there was in most cases dignity and respect on both sides.

People with AGP identifying under the trans umbrella appears to have been an orchestrated strategy with slow infiltration of public institutions and the media over a long period of time. We are not going to fully reverse it and it will take a long time to restore an acceptable balance.

Small wins are important which is why I would encourage everyone to sign this petition. I can’t link directly to the petition due to MN rules but I can link to the petition topic. www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668426-petition-update-the-equality-act-to-make-clear-the-characteristic-sex-is-biological-sex

Show quote history

If I could sign that petition twice I would already have done so.
I know that you were giving the OP advice based on your professional expertise. What I was saying is that the position you outlined is not neutral or balanced or respectful of GC beliefs.

ClitoralViolence · 31/12/2022 17:12

OriginalTheory · 31/12/2022 17:01

I'm always pretty amused (in a sort of "you've gotta laugh or cry" way) when someone comments "I've never come across x y or z but I don't believe that x y or z is a thing". Unlike BellePeppa I do know, in person, a number of actually trans individuals and I am very sure that not a single one of them is doing it for the fun or of it, or to be "different", or for a fad, or, god forbid, (as so many on here seem to think) to enable them to sneak into women's toilets and assault them (ffs). And every single one of them, given the choice, would have preferred to have been born "normal" - in a body and gender that they feel comfortable in, so they could simply BE and not have to spend their entire lives fighting against discrimination and stereotypes and cruel and dismissive words from family, "friends" and strangers alike.

...

And whilst that is a slight segue from the actual topic of the thread, I'd ask you, OP, whether it is really so hard to just use "they" and "them"? As others have mentioned - it would be considered rude to call someone by a name that wasn't theirs, even if you found it hard to remember or pronounce or even if you thought it was a stupid name for some reason - it's not about necessarily getting it right all the time but more about demonstrating that you are willing to try (and not simply dismiss it, which may not be what you've been doing but certainly is the sentiment that comes across in your post). It may not come naturally at first but the singular "they" has been part of the English language for a very long time (Shakespeare was known to use it, for example).The alternative suggestion of always referring to them by name is also a decent one and has the advantage of continuing to work if they choose to move to a different pronoun later.

I don't disagree that it sounds like the individual you're dealing with is now acting in ways which are unprofessional (and I don't disagree with the other posters who suggest logging what's been said when, in case that does continue) so I can understand your frustration - but perhaps consider theirs as well, particularly if this was in fact all started by you repeatedly and willfully misgendering them?

Show quote history

Some people are so fussy
We get their pronouns right
'My faer is only singular'
They strop with all their might
Its pitiful they can't see
How ironic it all is
When they refuse to hear that I'm
Just 'woman' with no 'cis'

Flounder2022 · 31/12/2022 17:12

Flounder2022 · 31/12/2022 17:11

Numerous people in this thread has referred to her colleague as they, it's equally instinctive at times. And without mangling anything! And at most requires a little effort!

Show quote history

*have 😊

QuerulousMegapode · 31/12/2022 17:13

I wish that we, in the English language had only one pronoun for everyone as they do in Finland. My head hurts trying to remember who goes by what. finland.fi/han/article/

Boiledbeetle · 31/12/2022 17:14

MY/PRONOUNS/ARE

I/am/tired/of/this/shit/./
Just/give/it/a/rest/you/look/like/a/tit/./
All/those//////are/driving/me/nuts/./
But/if/I/get/it/wrong/it(he/him/thry/xe/she/her)/just/tuts/./

(then/emails/hr/re/using/wrong/pronoun/./sigh/x.)

Afterfire · 31/12/2022 17:18

The most ridiculous come back on these threads is always that whoever is arguing re trans rights etc needs to go and “educate themselves”. It just makes you look utterly ridiculous. Do you not realise that people are perfectly capable of being aware of the information and research regarding the other point of view and yet still be capable of seeing a different view point? I am not completely as “pro trans” as people seem to think I am. No doubt I would get ripped to shreds on a trans forum. I just see the struggles my trans friends have. I try to be understanding and I don’t want to cause offence. Many people are here arguing about things they have no experience of. Plenty of people saying “oh I wouldn’t use they / them” are just hiding behind a keyboard and in real life they would just go along with it.

My 80 year old mil had a very heated argument with my 19 year old dd over trans people using women’s toilets, and yet totally unknowingly she’d used a public toilet right next to my dds best friend, who is trans earlier that same day. Mil doesn’t know she used to be he. And that’s how it should be. Just live and let live. No one has to be offended by everything. Dd and I laugh about it.

Everyone on Mumsnet is so quick to be offended by everything and to think the worst of everyone.