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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can I be forced to use pronouns?

307 replies

nationallampoons · 31/12/2022 14:38

Hi all.

I work in hospitality and my company have recently taken on some new recruits.

One is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns but is considering she/her pronouns. He was born male. He looks male. He had the same uniform as you would expect, neon hair, piercings, multiple badges on his uniform stating his pronouns, he's vegan, free Palestine, f Boris etc.. (I'm not against freeing Palestine or vegans) but you can imagine the type. Everyone's a "facist" etc.. it's draining at times.

Here is my problem, I don't want to use they/them pronouns. It feels unnatural when talking and I struggle with it anyway. I just don't want to do it, I don't care if that makes me rude. I'm just sick of it. I'm sick of being moaned at for misgendering. He just doesn't shut up about it.

Now he's saying he believes he may be a woman and is asking questions about "women hood" and all that bs, I've told him I'm not comfortable talking to him about it and I was called a boomer, a Karen and a gammon?? He is considering changing his pronouns in the new year.

Here is my question. Legally, can I be forced to use his preferred pronouns? Not arsed about losing my job, but I don't want to get into any criminal trouble

I just want to go to work, earn my living and go home. I don't have the time or energy or willingness to go along with this bullshit

OP posts:
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5
Ameanstreakamilewide · 01/01/2023 11:16

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 01/01/2023 00:23

Where does it stop? Will we have to remember 20 different neo-pronouns if we work in a large organisation?

Well, they think it'll never happen, it's so easy to use they/them and it's lovely and kind and makes them feel good about themselves.
No thought to people who can't remember the ever-changing pronouns, people with learning disabilities, well they can just do better.
How lovely and kind.

My niece says she's non-binary. She's a nice enough kid, but she does suck all the oxygen out of any room she's in.

Her cousins are also supposed to tow this party line and coddle her as much as her parents do.
She even told my 11 year old son that she was a boy, and my husband had to have a word with his brother about it.

She expects they/them pronouns, which her mum obliges, but her dad refers to her as she/her, sometimes.
My sister in law has barked at him across the room to 'correct him'. 😳

Now, my father in law has a cognitive impairment, bless him, with all that it entails.
He can't remember when his birthday is, most of the time, so he has no chance with my dopey niece's self indulgent nonsense.
My mother in law gets quite tense, about remembering to call my niece by the new name she's decided to call herself.

So, all in all, it's just too damned stressful for my m-i-l and f-i-l; and my m-i-l asks for me and my husband to 'be around', if they're going to be spending any time with my niece and her parents.
They need a buffer, bless them and I find that outrageous.
I stick to my m-i-l like glue during these occasions.

This is a couple in their late 70s, who are actively avoiding spending time with their son and granddaughter.

Don't tell me it's 'kind' to use someone's ridiculous pronouns.
'I don't see the harm in it'.

My niece only has to snap her fingers and everyone else has to fall in line. 🤨

Well, bollocks to that.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 11:34

My own teen tried to tell me I was transphobic because I would use the opposite sexed pronouns of their best friend. It was a very interesting discussion
with me calmly stating my boundaries and explaining them in detail. My teen has been convinced by social media, tv, and peer pressure that these males pass so very well.

My 16 year old teen then informed me they believed their female friend passed completely as male. Even when that friend is presenting as a feminine ‘boy’ (their term) wearing clothing that clearly reveals their breasts.

They believe that teenaged female is passing as a male.

That is where we are. That is the reality of ‘being kind’.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 11:40

because I would use the opposite sexed pronouns of their best friend.

would not of course!!

Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/01/2023 12:18

exactly helleofabore so many teenage girls reassure each other they completely pass as boys and they really don’t. It isn’t remotely kind to tell them they do

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 01/01/2023 14:01

Tell people that you are considering changing your name by deed poll to Karen and wish to be know by that name from now on.

Not just your first name, though - go the whole hog (pun intended) and become Karen Isa Gammon Grin

Boiledbeetle · 01/01/2023 14:27

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 01/01/2023 14:01

Tell people that you are considering changing your name by deed poll to Karen and wish to be know by that name from now on.

Not just your first name, though - go the whole hog (pun intended) and become Karen Isa Gammon Grin

Pretty. I like it.

DameMaud · 01/01/2023 17:18

Catiette · 31/12/2022 23:38

This is really thought-provoking, with so many interesting points. I’m undecided on the best approach to take - which, as a teacher, is far from easy (to all those asking when one ever uses third person pronouns to refer to someone in their presence anyway, teachers have to - a lot, and with an uncomfortably attentive audience!)

I think one point that may not have yet arisen (sorry if it has), though, is that all courtesies are, by definition, a social construct and contract in themselves - and, typically (if not universally) the product of an almost intangible evolution towards a continually shifting consensus on what is / isn’t polite in different contexts. In a sense, then, using preferred pronouns isn’t unambiguously progressive, and rejecting them isn’t definitively rude, even if it feels like that ;and it dies, to me. That it does is, rather, a reflection of a growing consensus and contract. And that’s where this gets interesting. Because there clearly isn’t an established consensus yet, and contract implies a reciprocity that seems lacking in this particular context, as others highlight above.

I think this is, in part, because this particular linguistic and social shift has been relatively abrupt - and perhaps you could say somewhat artificial? - in the sense of it being quite consciously engineered by a minority movement. That in itself isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It could be positive. But it may also come with issues. And that’s where the debate should begin and why debating it seems legitimate, as long as this is carried out respectfully and sensitively. It is, after all, ironically, respect and sensitivity that both sides are arguing for!

One logical starting point is, for me, to recognise that some of the more concrete societal changes that are parallel to, and exist in a clear, if complex, symbiosis with these linguistic shifts - for example, the accelerating movement towards gender neutral toilets as inclusive, and a collective sense that positive affirmation is advisable - are not unambiguously, definitively positive. Women ARE losing access to the single-sex facilities the Equalities Act acknowledges do benefit them. Cass DOES express concern about current straightforwardly affirmative approaches to the treatment of gender-questioning teens.

And that’s why I personally do feel a deep-seated ambivalence and discomfort using opposite-sex pronouns for students in my classes. I do it, but am giving something up myself in giving them this. This is my current compromise.

For those who wonder, I think that what I give up includes

  1. My absolute certainty that I’m fulfilling my duty of care to the best of my ability.

I worry that, in affirming the social transition of confused children, I may be somehow complicit in harming them by compounding diagnostic overshadowing or catalysing familial strife. A standard expectation that a medical professional condones this approach by teachers, and that a gender-questioning child changing their pronouns receives additional support, would go a long way to mitigating this for me.

In addition, I’m uncomfortably conscious that for me to, for example, call a boy “she”, is to explicitly condone, in a public forum full of malleable, naive and vulnerable adolescents for whom I’m a role model, the belief that gender supersedes sex in some or all contexts. I don’t see how this can’t contribute, however slightly, to solidifying some or all of the more concrete parallel societal shifts that remain potentially problematic? Young lesbians are being taught (literally; I queried a lesson plan about this as homophobic) that they should feel attraction to the male body; girls are learning they should accept a grown man in the changing rooms (ref. that distressing Primark video). It’s in large part through adults’ use of language and behavioural modelling that such conventions are taught and normalised: say please and thank you, it’s ok not to talk to strangers, don’t go into the bar area of the pub. Each seemingly insignificant use of a different-sex pronoun must add up up to a cumulative normalisation of values that, yes, very probably do have the potential to help some individuals - but also come with the risk of harm to groups; that are a kindness to some, but not to others. Again, this suggests a need for nuance. It’s hard, though, because the immediate responsibility to the individual, especially a child, will always feel paramount, with social change more abstract and reassuringly intangible.

  1. My own integrity. I’ve been asked to withhold a child’s pronouns from their parents, and this troubles me still. Someone I deeply respect equated this to not disclosing to a carer that a student has come out as gay, but I don’t think the two are wholly comparable for a number of reasons, including the ongoing uncertainty re: treating such children, the sense that (ironically, given the end of 1) above) adherence to each individual’s requested pronouns itself sometimes seems more ideologically driven than a considered and professional response to each child’s unique needs), and, lastly, the proactive nature of the, for want of a better word, deception - actively changing my pronoun use for the parents from what 500 other children and adults are used to me using in public spaces feels, quite honestly, rather sickeningly duplicitous in the moment.

  2. My sense of self.

It’s genuinely how I feel each time I use an opposite-sex pronoun now. It wouldn’t have been before reading widely on the current threats and quantifiable damage to women’s rights, but now I feel, as I do it, my guilty complicity in all the concrete shifts that these ostensibly courteous linguistic parallels facilitate: the rape victim forced to call her attacker “she” as per guidelines as were; the little old lady in the hospital ward instructed by nurses to perceive the male opposite as female as per some current NHS policy documents.

And last bit not least, there CAN a personal cost in addition to all of the above: the knowledge that, in using the opposite-sex pronoun, I’m certainly perceived as signalling my adherence to an ideology that denies me my own, sex-based sense of self, instead aligning the idea of man/woman - who or what I am - with socially constructed values I may not agree with. This truly is no small thing to ask of me.

So. My current preferred solution would be to use names and “they”. I hope this would go some way to respecting the deep-seating need for the trans student - for whatever reason this may exist - to be liberated from the shackles of their sex and the binary as they see it, without driving them towards a potentially problematic affirmation as research drags on. It would also liberate me - from feeling compelled to redefine myself in the eyes of others. This too, I feel, in the light of the current implications for women, is a similarly important kindness.

Sorry for the length. Another opportunity to work out my thinking in something I find, as a decidedly left-wing liberal, deeply troubling and complex. Who knows, I may feel differently tomorrow (whole new year, after all!)

Thank you for sharing your very nuanced and considered thinking process @Catiette .
Was going to paste a short excerpt rather than your whole post, but thought it was worth quoting your whole post in case anyone missed it from earlier.
You echo my thoughts and feelings exactly.
Reading people's processing rather than formulated opinions can be really helpful for others who are confused/conflicted I think.
I think this issue, as you say, really centres on 'consensus reality'.
I posted this link a while ago on another thread, and I think it is well worth reading to understand this as core to this debate:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_reality

Winter41 · 01/01/2023 19:06

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 31/12/2022 23:22

Have you ever thought that you don't get it because it makes no sense?

If it's a kindness to use requested pronouns, how far would that kindness go?

Neo-pronouns?
e/em/eirs
hie/hym/hiz
ne/nem/nears
tey/tem/ters
xe/xem/xers
ze/hir/hirs
bug/bugself

How about cunt/cuntself ?
How about if I'm a primary school teacher and cunt/cuntself are my pronouns? Would you still use it while in school, or do you have limits on how kind you'll be?

Oh, I know some will say it'll never happen, but why wouldn't it?

I don't think some people realise the door that they're opening.

I'm don't get it because it isn't how I feel. Just like I don't get religious conviction, or being attracted to the same sex. I don't think we can ever fully grasp someone else's lived experience. And for this reason we don't have the right to condemn it.

Helleofabore · 01/01/2023 21:43

Sorry if this has been posted before. It is a video, very short.

twitter.com/hatpinwoman/status/1609506407140794370?s=46&t=vEyeulEv4k-Db50ez5dw8w

Catiette · 01/01/2023 22:15

Thanks again to everyone for a really interesting debate…

nepeta · 02/01/2023 22:32

The pronouns 'she' and 'he' referred to (still refer to?) biological sex or perceived biological sex. Once 'they' is added, it logically follows (because there is no third sex) that 'he' and 'she' can no longer refer to biological sex, either, as the they/thems are also either male or female.

So introducing 'they' as a third person singular pronoun then means that the meaning of 'he' and 'she' is also rewritten, probably as abstract gender identities not based on sex.

There was no public consultation about this rather enormous change...

Given that nobody seems able to give a definition of how it feels to have a feminine or masculine gender identity, I no longer know what my preferred pronouns might be.

If I continue accepting 'she/her', am I now accepting sexist stereotypes about femininity as something that describes me?

Several nonbinary female individuals have argued that they are not women because they reject those stereotypes, and this suggests that they would certainly view my choice of 'she' as evidence that I am comfortable with sexist stereotypes about femininity. It also suggests that the definition of 'woman' in the gender identity ideology could be inherently retrogressive and sexist.

That is my dilemma when considering the idea that it is simply polite to use the preferred pronouns of others. Those pronouns redefine everyone else's pronouns, too, and this is going to be particularly harmful for women and girls.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/01/2023 22:39

Sorry if this has been posted before. It is a video, very short.

Great video.

ArcaneWireless · 02/01/2023 22:40

second that. ^

MichaelFabricantWig · 02/01/2023 23:29

Why on earth would you be prosecuted? It’s not a criminal offence to call a male he. In a work sense if it could be harassment is a more complex issue. I’d certainly put in a grievance about his name calling to you though.

MichaelFabricantWig · 02/01/2023 23:59

*An employer has a right to set the code of conduct on the behaviour it expects from its employees and how they speak to each other and customers etc.

I am not saying using preferred pro-nouns at work is neutral what I am saying is legally it is not unreasonable for an employer to expect employees to respect peoples pro-nouns.*

welllll I think this has yet to be fully tested in the tribunals yet. An employer can’t get round equality law by having a policy which is in itself discriminatory ie to those with legally protected gender critical beliefs. It’s not a hill I would risk my paid employment on but some people might and the litigation on all this is very far from over

Kucingsparkles · 03/01/2023 07:50

Just wanted to thank @Catiette for an excellent post, amongst many other excellent posts on this thread.

Princessglittery · 03/01/2023 07:59

@MichaelFabricantWig you only quoted part of my post, for balance you should have included:
However, the alternative is also true that using derogatory terms such as boomer (ageist) Karen (misogynistic) , Gammon (no idea) towards you is disrespectful and potentially discriminatory.

I also point out in my posts that both GC and GI views are protected characteristics with neither taking precedence, and that there will be more case law in this area.

Spanky123 · 03/01/2023 16:25

Pronouns are one of the woke brigades finest weapons they subject us to.

MargaritaPie · 03/01/2023 17:19

Noone is forcing you to use pronouns, but if you're going to be obnoxious to or about trans/non-binary people then do be prepared for people being obnoxious to you in return.

Just remember noone is being forced to be nice to you.

ClitoralViolence · 03/01/2023 21:56

Maybe not @MargaritaPie but being civil is necessary in the workplace, and this young person certainly wasn't. I think the shots have been first fired from his side rather than OPs.

MiddleOfTheNightAgain · 04/01/2023 01:47

@MargaritaPie The person described by the OP is male bodied, demanding personal information and support from a colleague who is a woman. He then insulted her viciously for not obeying him. He sounds like a narcissistic jerk - and completely unprofessional. You’re angry that the OP didn’t bow down and submit to all his wishes?

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 06/01/2023 10:37

Just remember noone is being forced to be nice to you.

Interesting you should make that point, MargaritaPie.

It suggests to me you have absolutely no idea how much women and girls (female people) are effectively forced to be nice to male people, whether through female socialisation to always “be kind”, or out of fear of the consequences if we’re not.

We know very, very well that - conversely - male people feel under no obligation to be nice to us; our own experiences of sexual harassment, assault and discrimination, and of male VAWG tell us that, as well as the enormous amount of evidence of just how not nice male people as a class can be to female people as a class, throughout history, the world over.

Maybe the world would be a much better place if male people were strongly encouraged to be nice to female people as a default.

What a radical, progressive change that would be.

Boiledbeetle · 06/01/2023 11:01

MargaritaPie · 03/01/2023 17:19

Noone is forcing you to use pronouns, but if you're going to be obnoxious to or about trans/non-binary people then do be prepared for people being obnoxious to you in return.

Just remember noone is being forced to be nice to you.

Fair point.

So that means if before I've even got my coat off and my name badge on, the person getting in my face telling me how im allowed to think and insisting on me using a specific pronoun to talk about them when that person isn't there and calling me names if I dont then technically, they started it.

So why are they surprised if anyone has something to say or ask on the matter? Why try to shut us down with even more objectionable insults?

And you are right no one has forced the posters that wished you happy New year elsewhere to be nice. It turns out that underneath some of us actually are nice. And we are rather attached to you Pie x

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 09/01/2023 20:50

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 31/12/2022 23:37

SantaCarlaCalifornia

The female musician Halsey has requested she/her and they/them, and demands that publications interviewing her alternate between using she/her and they/them in the copy.

Update to our discussion of Halsey and others like Halsey.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 09/01/2023 20:54

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 31/12/2022 23:37

SantaCarlaCalifornia

The female musician Halsey has requested she/her and they/them, and demands that publications interviewing her alternate between using she/her and they/them in the copy.

Further to our discussion of Halsey, this is being shared on social media.