Women's rights general conversations

[Kucingsparkles]

This is an experimental thread, all input much appreciated!

There is so much excellent information and so many active discussions on FWR that I wondered if it would be useful to have a thread to sort of "cross-fertilise" between them - airing little thoughts or vignettes that wouldn't themselves merit their own thread, to highlight other posts/threads of particular interest or to point to notable developments on fast-moving threads so that casual observers know where to look.

(For example, "the X thread has meandered onto a fascinating discussion of Y" or "Poster P's amazing analysis on thread Z might have relevance to the scenario in thread W" or even "Random bloke asked me to smile while I was choosing onions, grr"- that sort of thing).

Right, bring on the flames or flowers! <cowers>

God how I hate how the "sex work is work" thing got hold so quickly, along with "don't worry girls there's always only fans" etc.

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/edinburgh-lap-dancing-ban-sex-work-degrades-every-one-of-us-turning-women-into-the-playthings-of-pathetic-men-susan-dalgety-3939935

Susan Dalgety is good in The Scotsman on this issue. I read a thread earlier about what sex work usually looks like but can’t find it now. Ho hum.

twitter.com/guillotesque/status/1599717594516189184

Found it! Short and honest. And probably class based.

I'm just.... I can't really say without probably getting a ban or deletion but I can't get round you being so blaze about renting a human being twice with the intention of using their non-enjoying-the-sex bodies (used in place of preferred term to avoid deletion), and now you are handwaving the prostitution of young women because they need money to help educate themselves as being ok, if not aspirational? "earning a lot more money than they could otherwise"

Completely ignoring the mental, physical and social issues surrounding what prostitutes go through not to mention as a PP mentioned just exactly which demographic of women tend to end up in prostitution?

The happy hooker myth is strong in this one.

Yes! Thank you! I've been sat here trying to find the words.

I didn't even find the words, that's a barely coherent jumble because to be honest I'm just absolutely disgusted and angry.

Women are people, they are not things you can rent for your "pleasure" have a fucking wank don't pay to rape.

This thread includes the apt quote: When a woman is poor and hungry, the thing to put in her mouth is food, not your cock Rachel Moran

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4692317-nadia-whittome-wants-to-decriminalise-prostitution-because-of-poverty

When a woman is poor and hungry, the thing to put in her mouth is food, not your cock

These really are powerful words. And I must admit to being rather astounded by having a male say it is ‘complex’ while minimising the harm and exploitation of any woman feeling that any type of sex work is the best financial decision for them.

On a feminist board.

It depends, of course, when I went to do the website for "Les Girls" in Soho it was mainly young women helping with their degree or earning a lot more money than they could otherwise (and with a plan)

I feel sick reading this. Women do not have sex for money if they have supportive families, have never been abused, have good self-esteem and good opportunities in life.

Why would anyone have sex with some revolting bloke who thinks payment is consent? Who doesn't realise that you don't want them to want the girlfriend experience because pretending to like someone is the worse thing mentally.

Did you know Tass, that many prostitutes have false front teeth? Because they get knocked out by their pimps.

And it's being pushed to young women as a positive fucking choice.

They really are powerful words, straight to the point!

I too am just stunned at the apparent "complexity", no it's not complex at all men of the world, you just like to pretend it is and that it's in a women's best interests to justify your sexual kicks. Disgusting and cowardly mindset I feel.

I have endless contempt for the men who use prostitutes and endless compassion for the women who have been forced or fallen into it.

Would any of the men who advocate for this supposedly empowering "work" be happy to pay their way through further education (and maybe build a little nest egg with all that mega bucks they'll apparently earn) by allowing disgusting men to abuse them, assault them, rape them, degrade them, possibly not pay them and even maybe kill them?

Would they be loudly outspoken with friends, family and society that they are a proud and empowered "sex worker"?... no thought not.

No. Lets just leave all that nastiness to the sub-humans, the support dog people, the sex class we can easily identify when it suits us, the ones that don't matter: the women.

Women: Madonnas, whores, uteruses, emotional support vaginas.

And yes to all of this! I was trying to find the words about how it's usually the most vulnerable that end up in prostitution.

That is powerful and despite coming from poverty I've never really thought about it in that way. I was lucky because I wasn't out on my own; she is beyond strong to have not given in to it. Not happy with that wording but it would have been far easier to "sell" sex than not and she just didn't. No disrespect to the women who did "sell" sex because I think I'd have been one of them. The fear of violence and being on the streets would have made me feel I had no choice. Certainly, when you read this you can't see selling sex as anything like a real choice, to some it's just the least bad thing.

Further on there are some people talking about the women who do Only Fans and say sex work is work. Maybe it is for them, maybe they're happy to show their arsehole off for money and fair play to them but my god it's a horrible hellish experience for most women and just rape where a few quid changes hands and where most of that money will go to some pimp or other.

Still, all that said, men do have a right to have sex ... extreme sarcasm alert.

Yes. ‘Sex work’, egg donation and surrogacy.

All exploitative of female bodies.

All currently being sold by some as being ‘empowering’ if it gives girls and women independence.

What the actual fuck!!

There was a very eye-opening thread on Relationships recently from a woman who works as a prostitute sharing her experiences. Unfortunately I’m struggling to find it. Suffice it say it sounded awful.

I remember surviving on welfare as a teenager putting myself through secondary school and thinking that working on reception at a brothel might be ok, or taking that topless bar maid job. Luckily, I had friends who questioned me hard about this and made me understand that it is never ‘easy’ fucking money.

Never.

Maybe it is for them, maybe they're happy to show their arsehole off for money

I wonder if they really are happy.

I think maybe mental health issues, or boundary issues, past abuse, desperate need of money or need to convince themselves and need to ignore the harm it's really causing them etc could easily be reasons some women say they feel "happy" with doing only fans but I'm not sure they really are.

I'm aghast that anyone is on here discussing their history of paying for women's bodies so casually.

Did you mistake the feminist board for 'punters anonymous' or something.

Paying women for sex is gross behaviour. Shame on you.

Ah here it is www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/4638679-reasons-never-to-go-into-prostitution-the-horrors-of-it-and-ukpunting-rant?reply=120166235

I don’t think the OP would mind me sharing here but if it’s against the rules please ask Mumsnet to remove.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/4638679-reasons-never-to-go-into-prostitution-the-horrors-of-it-and-ukpunting-rant

This one?

What wouldn’t be awful about having to accept someone else’s body parts inside any of your body’s orifices to earn a living ?

Oops cross posted with *CyanCyan

I think the thing that has really struck me is the centering of himself as some kind of tragic hero in the whole story. It's like a perfect little microcosm of how misogyny and men as the central character/only real humans is just a default way of thinking.

And it would be awful enough if it was just that! Everything else that they go through is just horrific.

Yes, I was thinking reading it that this person embodies the "nice guy" trope. Incel vibes.

I absolutely agree. And I absolutely understand.

Not only that, but the simple desperation of hoping to have some fucked up punter use your body for sex so you can get paid and hoping that that punter doesn’t use you as a punching or stabbing bag. And the list absolutely goes on and on.