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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For Women Scotland Judicial Review 2

420 replies

Signalbox · 06/11/2022 10:44

For Women Scotland Judicial Review: mentioned today in the Times. I didn't realise that this was happening this week on 9th and 10th November according to FWS website...

forwomen.scot/01/09/2022/impact-of-second-judicial-review/

We have a petition for judicial review pending, averring that this revised guidance is not compliant with the court’s decision and is therefore unlawful. The Scottish Government has repeated its earlier error in law by incorporating transsexuals living as women (albeit now restricted to those who hold a GRC) into the definition of woman, thus conflating and confusing two protected characteristics. The Scottish Government has declined to remove the section referring to the GRA and have indicated that it is their understanding that a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Whether they believe a person’s biological sex changes on receipt of a GRC or whether they now dispute that the Equality Act refers to biological sex remains to be seen.

Permission has been granted for the judicial review and the substantive hearing date has been set for 9th and 10th November 2022.

We believe this case puts the Committee in a very difficult position as, until such time as the court makes a ruling, the proper relationship between the GRA and the Equality Act cannot be understood, and nor can the consequences of any legislative reform of the GRA.

If the Scottish Government is correct that a person’s sex changes in the Equality Act with a GRC then it follows that the statement to Committee by Cabinet Secretary, Shona Robison, that the GRR Bill “does not redefine what a man or a woman is”, is incorrect. Clearly, if men who hold a GRC (transwomen) are included in the definition of woman (and women who hold a GRC (transmen) are excluded), then changing the circumstances under which a person is entitled to a GRC will also have the effect of changing the definition of woman.

The GRR Bill proposes a significant change to the eligibility criteria for a GRC and will include, for the first time, those without a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria and those aged 16 and 17. The Scottish Government also estimates a tenfold increase in applications for a GRC. This diversification and expansion of GRC holders from the current situation will significantly change who is counted under the definition of woman.

Whether a person is defined as a man or a woman matters for the successful operation of the Equality Act across a broad range of provisions, including single-sex exceptions, equal pay claims and access to maternity rights, and we are concerned that this is underappreciated and poorly understood by the Scottish Government. It is, of course, vitally important because any action taken by the Scottish Parliament must be careful not to modify any of the protected characteristics, including the definition of woman, lest it strays into reserved matters.

The Scottish Government seems hopelessly confused and inconsistent when it comes to the definition of woman, with at least three different definitions currently in operation across various pieces of legislation and policy. Contrary to the position outlined above, it fully understood that sex was biological when SNP MSPs voted in favour of the Lamont amendment to substitute gender with sex in the Forensic Medical Services (Victims of Sexual Offences) Bill to ensure a request for a female medical examiner resulted in the provision of exactly that, and not a man with a GRC (transwoman).

At the other extreme, the Cabinet Secretary again contradicted the Scottish Government’s current position by asserting a GRC is not required for a man to fall under the definition of woman and access single-sex services for that sex, when she said to Parliament that “the 2010 Act does not apply exceptions specifically to toilets and changing rooms. Trans people can and do use those now, whether they have a GRC or not, and they have been using them for many years.” This fails to recognise the single-sex mandates in legislation relating to schools and workplaces as well as specific examples in the Equality Act Explanatory Notes – we have written separately to you about this matter.

A recent Scottish Government public consultation on the Review of Funding and Commissioning of Violence Against Women and Girls Services redefined a woman as “anyone who defines themselves as a woman”. Not only does this circular statement flagrantly disregard the Inner House ruling but it fails to recognise funding for women’s services can only be allocated via positive action measures in s158 of the Equality Act so must adhere to the protected characteristics. Our letters to both the review group and the Scottish Ministers asking for the consultation to be withdrawn and reissued with a correction have not received any response. We further note the Scottish Government only accepts applications for funding from individual women’s services on production of a LBTI inclusion policy that is transwomen inclusive. Again, this is not dependent on holding a GRC.

In summary, we believe the revised statutory guidance for the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act is unlawful. The Scottish Government believe otherwise and maintain a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Not only does this decouple women’s biological sex from sex-specific provisions in the Equality Act, but it means reforming the GRA also carries a serious risk of intruding on reserved matters. The Scottish Government has a history of inconsistency and lack of understanding on both the definition of woman and the operation of the Equality Act. All of this leaves the Committee exposed, trying to make good law in the midst of a live court action, the outcome of which materially affects the reform.

OP posts:
HopRockers · 13/12/2022 18:01

"sex’ is not limited to biological or birth sex, but includes those in possession of a GRC obtained in accordance with the 2004 Act"

does the "in accordance" bit mean that self ID'd GRCs issued by Scottish self ID rather than by the requirements of the UK 2004 act shouldn't be included???

Such a bloody mess

As ever Scott had it right
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive"

bellinisurge · 13/12/2022 18:21

As Scottish self ID is not going to be in accordance with the 2004 Act then surely the answer is no

Whereareyourshoes · 13/12/2022 18:35

ResisterRex · 13/12/2022 17:45

In The Times

Definition of woman in Equality Act includes trans, court rules

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/630cd7d4-7b06-11ed-bcd8-855e06175970?shareToken=05f9bd1645ed95538c07e3ceb117b319

“Maggie Chapman, Green MSP for North East Scotland, and a supporter of the bill, tweeted: “Trans women are women. Most of us knew that anyway.”

FWS responded: “Any MSPs thinking of voting with Ms Chapman next week now know they may be voting for the erasure of women in law. No more lies.” “

Thanks for the mindless mantras Maggie. Sacrificing the safety of the ‘people formerly known as women’ and children for the benefit of your own wee pals.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 13/12/2022 18:42

HopRockers · 13/12/2022 18:01

"sex’ is not limited to biological or birth sex, but includes those in possession of a GRC obtained in accordance with the 2004 Act"

does the "in accordance" bit mean that self ID'd GRCs issued by Scottish self ID rather than by the requirements of the UK 2004 act shouldn't be included???

Such a bloody mess

As ever Scott had it right
"Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive"

Maybe I was wrong earlier, does this meanthat people with a GRC get to choose whether they are categorised by legal sex or by actual sex?

Signalbox · 13/12/2022 19:00

Just watching Dennis Kavanagh on the Graham Linehan YouTube account. He's providing quite a good overview. Starts here...

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/12/2022 19:03

Trans women are women. Most of us knew that anyway.”

Again, as with Penny Mordaunt, the term "trans woman" is being conflated with "having a GRC". Not everyone who calls themselves a "trans woman" has a GRC and the ones who don't are unequivocally men under the law.

bellinisurge · 13/12/2022 19:46

Absolutely correct @Ereshkigalangcleg . I think this point needs to be made loud and clear. The general public still see transwomen as Haley Cropper from Coronation W

bellinisurge · 13/12/2022 19:47

.. Street

ArabellaScott · 13/12/2022 20:17

wingsoverscotland.com/the-land-of-make-believe/

'...the judgement is gibberish, which is perhaps inevitable given the subject matter. But that will only serve to greatly amplify the very considerable and blindingly obvious problems that the gender reform bill will create in terms of the UK’s internal borders, where a person will be one sex in Carlisle and the opposite sex in Gretna.

(Lady Haldane appears to actively celebrate the ambiguity of the law, which one might normally expect to be something that judges would find alarming and unhelpful'

publicsafety · 13/12/2022 21:52

Excellent news that this was overturned

"The Scottish government agreed with them, and counted trans women as women in their legislation.
Trans women make up around 0.3% of the Scottish population. There are 788 board members of public bodies in Scotland, so, proportionally, around three of them would be trans women."

In fact none of them are transwomen - but so great is the panic that som want to waste vast amounts of money in opposing the theoretical possibility that people who are legally women would serve on these boards,

JK Rowling can afford to spend large amounts of money on legal action of this kind. Most folks can't

HopRockers · 13/12/2022 21:54

I keep coming back to the timing. Lady Haldane is interpreting awful law rather than writing it.

I have only known one law lord but my god that man never did anything without understanding every possible ramification of his actions...

ResisterRex · 13/12/2022 22:09

A 🧵 before 🛌

twitter.com/jebadoo2/status/1602783119995723781?s=46&t=z_r42tG7GXpiuRrcCaDVlA

TheBiologyStupid · 13/12/2022 22:18

bellinisurge · 13/12/2022 18:21

As Scottish self ID is not going to be in accordance with the 2004 Act then surely the answer is no

That's a fascinating point!

CharlieParley · 13/12/2022 22:32

HopRockers · 13/12/2022 21:54

I keep coming back to the timing. Lady Haldane is interpreting awful law rather than writing it.

I have only known one law lord but my god that man never did anything without understanding every possible ramification of his actions...

Well, it usually takes three months for this type of judgement, but Lady Haldane delivered hers after just one.

Just in time for the final vote on the GRR Bill, this gives opponents to the reform the most effective weapon we need to put the lie to the Scottish Government's claim that self-id cannot possibly have a negative impact on women's rights because a GRC conveys no new rights on an applicant.

And here we have a judge in the Outer House, the lower tier of the highest civil court in Scotland, disagreeing with that claim.

This judgement also delivers a blow to self-id in general because it draws a sharp line between those who identify as trans who have a GRC and those who identify as trans who do not have a GRC.

Which is why Maggie Chapman's take is particularly stupid - this judgement unequivocally does not say TWAW as she claims. It says only with a GRC does the law accept a man who identifies as trans is a woman. Massive difference. Which should make proponents of the reform much more desperate to pass the law.

Abccde · 13/12/2022 23:07

CharlieParley · 13/12/2022 22:32

Well, it usually takes three months for this type of judgement, but Lady Haldane delivered hers after just one.

Just in time for the final vote on the GRR Bill, this gives opponents to the reform the most effective weapon we need to put the lie to the Scottish Government's claim that self-id cannot possibly have a negative impact on women's rights because a GRC conveys no new rights on an applicant.

And here we have a judge in the Outer House, the lower tier of the highest civil court in Scotland, disagreeing with that claim.

This judgement also delivers a blow to self-id in general because it draws a sharp line between those who identify as trans who have a GRC and those who identify as trans who do not have a GRC.

Which is why Maggie Chapman's take is particularly stupid - this judgement unequivocally does not say TWAW as she claims. It says only with a GRC does the law accept a man who identifies as trans is a woman. Massive difference. Which should make proponents of the reform much more desperate to pass the law.

The concern I have is that the Scottish Government are so bloody minded that they will pay absolutely no mind to this judgment and that the MSPs are quite frankly too thick. (That includes the ministers (especially them).

Despite all the talk, I do not have faith that the UK government has the interests of woman as a concern.

I do think there me be reasons for the judgement being deliberately vague - its opened a can of worms deliberately.

But I think our political systems are so broken throughout the UK, that this is only going to be bad news for woman, even in the long term.

ResisterRex · 14/12/2022 05:56

Baroness Nichol seems to agree we need to repeal the GRA:

twitter.com/baroness_nichol/status/1602697476905074690?s=46&t=Au5BgjGD49II56iO0SNI-A

Signalbox · 14/12/2022 08:46

Statement from Murray Blackburn Mackenzie…

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/12/13/mbm-statement-on-the-ruling-in-for-ws-vs-the-scottish-ministers/

OP posts:
Signalbox · 14/12/2022 08:47

”From today, it must stop the absurd pretence that a GRC is only a bit of paper with no consequences for anyone else.
The court says that as things stand a GRC changes whether someone is a woman or a man for the law governing single sex services and anti-discrimination measures.”

OP posts:
xalo · 14/12/2022 08:53

Well the Commonwealth Games are going to be interesting...

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