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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For Women Scotland Judicial Review 2

420 replies

Signalbox · 06/11/2022 10:44

For Women Scotland Judicial Review: mentioned today in the Times. I didn't realise that this was happening this week on 9th and 10th November according to FWS website...

forwomen.scot/01/09/2022/impact-of-second-judicial-review/

We have a petition for judicial review pending, averring that this revised guidance is not compliant with the court’s decision and is therefore unlawful. The Scottish Government has repeated its earlier error in law by incorporating transsexuals living as women (albeit now restricted to those who hold a GRC) into the definition of woman, thus conflating and confusing two protected characteristics. The Scottish Government has declined to remove the section referring to the GRA and have indicated that it is their understanding that a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Whether they believe a person’s biological sex changes on receipt of a GRC or whether they now dispute that the Equality Act refers to biological sex remains to be seen.

Permission has been granted for the judicial review and the substantive hearing date has been set for 9th and 10th November 2022.

We believe this case puts the Committee in a very difficult position as, until such time as the court makes a ruling, the proper relationship between the GRA and the Equality Act cannot be understood, and nor can the consequences of any legislative reform of the GRA.

If the Scottish Government is correct that a person’s sex changes in the Equality Act with a GRC then it follows that the statement to Committee by Cabinet Secretary, Shona Robison, that the GRR Bill “does not redefine what a man or a woman is”, is incorrect. Clearly, if men who hold a GRC (transwomen) are included in the definition of woman (and women who hold a GRC (transmen) are excluded), then changing the circumstances under which a person is entitled to a GRC will also have the effect of changing the definition of woman.

The GRR Bill proposes a significant change to the eligibility criteria for a GRC and will include, for the first time, those without a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria and those aged 16 and 17. The Scottish Government also estimates a tenfold increase in applications for a GRC. This diversification and expansion of GRC holders from the current situation will significantly change who is counted under the definition of woman.

Whether a person is defined as a man or a woman matters for the successful operation of the Equality Act across a broad range of provisions, including single-sex exceptions, equal pay claims and access to maternity rights, and we are concerned that this is underappreciated and poorly understood by the Scottish Government. It is, of course, vitally important because any action taken by the Scottish Parliament must be careful not to modify any of the protected characteristics, including the definition of woman, lest it strays into reserved matters.

The Scottish Government seems hopelessly confused and inconsistent when it comes to the definition of woman, with at least three different definitions currently in operation across various pieces of legislation and policy. Contrary to the position outlined above, it fully understood that sex was biological when SNP MSPs voted in favour of the Lamont amendment to substitute gender with sex in the Forensic Medical Services (Victims of Sexual Offences) Bill to ensure a request for a female medical examiner resulted in the provision of exactly that, and not a man with a GRC (transwoman).

At the other extreme, the Cabinet Secretary again contradicted the Scottish Government’s current position by asserting a GRC is not required for a man to fall under the definition of woman and access single-sex services for that sex, when she said to Parliament that “the 2010 Act does not apply exceptions specifically to toilets and changing rooms. Trans people can and do use those now, whether they have a GRC or not, and they have been using them for many years.” This fails to recognise the single-sex mandates in legislation relating to schools and workplaces as well as specific examples in the Equality Act Explanatory Notes – we have written separately to you about this matter.

A recent Scottish Government public consultation on the Review of Funding and Commissioning of Violence Against Women and Girls Services redefined a woman as “anyone who defines themselves as a woman”. Not only does this circular statement flagrantly disregard the Inner House ruling but it fails to recognise funding for women’s services can only be allocated via positive action measures in s158 of the Equality Act so must adhere to the protected characteristics. Our letters to both the review group and the Scottish Ministers asking for the consultation to be withdrawn and reissued with a correction have not received any response. We further note the Scottish Government only accepts applications for funding from individual women’s services on production of a LBTI inclusion policy that is transwomen inclusive. Again, this is not dependent on holding a GRC.

In summary, we believe the revised statutory guidance for the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act is unlawful. The Scottish Government believe otherwise and maintain a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Not only does this decouple women’s biological sex from sex-specific provisions in the Equality Act, but it means reforming the GRA also carries a serious risk of intruding on reserved matters. The Scottish Government has a history of inconsistency and lack of understanding on both the definition of woman and the operation of the Equality Act. All of this leaves the Committee exposed, trying to make good law in the midst of a live court action, the outcome of which materially affects the reform.

OP posts:
BellaAmorosa · 13/12/2022 15:31

It will be painfully obvious by now that IANAL, @CharlieParley, so I have to ask, does this judgement affect which comparator is appropriate in sex discrimination cases involving people with a GRC?

Abccde · 13/12/2022 15:31

I have mixed views on this ruling.

Unfortunately I thought it was inevitable when looking at the GRA / EA.

I don't see how the Scottish government can move forward with this bill as it is. They have lied about the impacts. That is indisputable now. Its not even that they have been misinterpreting the law - they straight out lied.

If the Scottish government does pass the bill, it gives the UK government reason to intervene - you simply cannot allow a bill so dangerous to woman to pass.

And ultimately we now have the clarity that we never really had before - a person with a GRC is entitled to be considered a female in every situation.

The fact that noone will also for a GRC means that no male person can be excluded if he says he is female.

So woman are now the lesser class and the Equality act can no longer be used to ensure that females are equal.

And this can not be allowed to be the case. So it might take a while, but this is the beginning of the end for the fight i believe.

Until that happens I no longer consider myself a woman or a female. I am a mother (it's the only thing they can't have) and I am a human who is not equal.

But woman / female- they mean fuck all.

Signalbox · 13/12/2022 15:41

But woman / female- they mean fuck all.

Quite. At some point society will need a new word for those people formerly known as female /woman / girl. Is there any other thing that exists in the world that doesn’t have a word to define it.

OP posts:
CharlieParley · 13/12/2022 15:43

RhannionKPSS · 13/12/2022 15:29

I’m afraid Lady Haldane hasn’t a clue what she is talking about here. She is meant to set precedents, not muddle along. Very very disappointed in her. What a disgrace and an insult her judgement is.

I beg to differ. This was a judgement in the Outer House. Judgements in the Outer House do not set precedent.

Also, judicial reviews ask the judge to rule against the government, which judges are very strongly disinclined to do. The chance of success of a JR is typically given as 25% or less for that (and a number of other reasons).

For Lady Haldane not to stick extremely closely to the letter of the law in her interpretation would have been a bold move indeed, and that just doesn't happen in the Outer House.

It is not her fault that the law is a mess.

CharlieParley · 13/12/2022 15:49

BellaAmorosa · 13/12/2022 15:31

It will be painfully obvious by now that IANAL, @CharlieParley, so I have to ask, does this judgement affect which comparator is appropriate in sex discrimination cases involving people with a GRC?

IANAL either, I only know about paragraph 28 because it directly relates to something I worked on.

As for your question, this has been much discussed amongst lawyers and was given as one reason to oppose self-id, so I would say that we cannot answer this question conclusively, just as we cannot answer various others about the interplay between the GRA and the EqA.

Which is why a number of witnesses in the Scottish Parliament Committee and various others have advised that this must be clarified first, before any reform of the GRA should happen.

JacquelinePot · 13/12/2022 15:56

That NHS case earlier this year (man in the women's staff changing room who said HE was discriminated against because the women made it clear they didn't want him there) used females as the comparator. Many here said (I think correctly) that was wrong. The tribunal found for the man and sadly the NHS did not appeal.

Under the new Scottish understanding of the law, I would think females would be the comparitor

BellaAmorosa · 13/12/2022 16:00

CharlieParley · 13/12/2022 15:49

IANAL either, I only know about paragraph 28 because it directly relates to something I worked on.

As for your question, this has been much discussed amongst lawyers and was given as one reason to oppose self-id, so I would say that we cannot answer this question conclusively, just as we cannot answer various others about the interplay between the GRA and the EqA.

Which is why a number of witnesses in the Scottish Parliament Committee and various others have advised that this must be clarified first, before any reform of the GRA should happen.

Thanks

BellaAmorosa · 13/12/2022 16:04

JacquelinePot · 13/12/2022 15:56

That NHS case earlier this year (man in the women's staff changing room who said HE was discriminated against because the women made it clear they didn't want him there) used females as the comparator. Many here said (I think correctly) that was wrong. The tribunal found for the man and sadly the NHS did not appeal.

Under the new Scottish understanding of the law, I would think females would be the comparitor

This is my worry. And it does need a conclusive ruling.
**
This judgement shows that the EA2010 and the GRA2004 simply cannot coexist. So we should be grateful perhaps for that. As @Princessglittery (I think) said upthread, this result might look like a setback but may in the future be looked on as a turning point.

Signalbox · 13/12/2022 16:12

JacquelinePot · 13/12/2022 15:56

That NHS case earlier this year (man in the women's staff changing room who said HE was discriminated against because the women made it clear they didn't want him there) used females as the comparator. Many here said (I think correctly) that was wrong. The tribunal found for the man and sadly the NHS did not appeal.

Under the new Scottish understanding of the law, I would think females would be the comparitor

But I wonder if they could still exclude them using the single sex exceptions. I don’t see how they can if GRA males are considered to be of the female sex.

OP posts:
PaleBlueMoonlight · 13/12/2022 16:39

You also cannot ask to see a GRC, so if this judgment is upheld the only way that someone can demonstrate that a particular man is legally female is to ask for their birth certificate, but I am concerned that if you only ask people who appear to be men (but say they are women) for a birth certificate, then that could be discrimination on the grounds of gender reassignment (assuming now that the comparator for discrimination is a woman without the protected characteristic of gender assignment, i.e. if you would not ask a female woman for their birth certificate, then it is discriminatory to ask a male woman).
This cannot be correct, but if that how the law is going to be interpreted, then there will be no ability to stop men coming into loos (disproportionate/impractical to ask for a birth certificate) and for places like refuges they will have to ask all women for a birth certificate and will not be able to exclude male women.
This judgment is hideous, but I do see how it can be helpful in really illuminating the issue.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 13/12/2022 16:43

*won't be able to exclude male women with a GRC

Boiledbeetle · 13/12/2022 17:00

So if we can't call ourselves woman as that in Scotland now includes man can we now be called noman. What sex are you? I am a noman. Or go down a completely different route. what sex are you? I'm a wifflesnafferhapterf.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 13/12/2022 17:04

Actually I was right first time, they woudl not be able to exclude a male woman (i.e. a man with a GRC) but they would be able to exclude a male man (so a man without a GRC however he identifies). Presumably would also have to exclude a female man (a transman with a GRC) from refuges etc. so as not to be in breach of the single sex exemption.

BellaAmorosa · 13/12/2022 17:09

We're women. We're female. No point whatsoever in ceding to the appropriation of those words and the rest of our language, because whatever we call ourselves, some males and their allies will insist it also applies to them. And then we really will have no words at all to describe our material reality and experience.
No need to compromise when talking about ourselves. Everybody knows what a woman is, especially those who claim not to.

Ramblingnamechanger · 13/12/2022 17:11

I really want to identify as a much older woman so I can reclaim my stolen pension contributions

PaleBlueMoonlight · 13/12/2022 17:11

I agree, but in law it really matters if woman does not mean woman (however much we resist in day to day usage). It is the difference between Keira Bell (who has not been able to annul her GRC) being legally able to access a single sex space and not. We either need repeal of the GRA or an amendment to the Equality Act (ideally both).

Kucingsparkles · 13/12/2022 17:16

If "female" doesn't mean actually female in reference to humans in Scotland, does it still mean actually female when people are deciding which bovine cloudy white fluid to put in their tea or which Gallus gallus they want to collect cloacal products from to dip soldiers into?

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 13/12/2022 17:35

Boiledbeetle · 13/12/2022 17:00

So if we can't call ourselves woman as that in Scotland now includes man can we now be called noman. What sex are you? I am a noman. Or go down a completely different route. what sex are you? I'm a wifflesnafferhapterf.

Sounds very Eowyn! 'No living man am I ...'

On a more positive note, the noise on Twitter is a significant change from previously. The finer implications of this are actually being unpicked. What law is worth the paper it's written on when it doesn't know the difference between sex and gender and claims to be unable to define what a woman is?

You have to hope the humans of the future will look back on this epoch and laugh in disbelief. The wheels surely have to come off at some point when societies are concocted on premises that are not even real?

Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits.

nilsmousehammer · 13/12/2022 17:36

I suggest in the meantime that actually female people name themselves as part of the sex class formerly known as female. If the word now means mostly a male person's identity.

ResisterRex · 13/12/2022 17:37

I was just thinking this:

twitter.com/j4ppleby/status/1602685748624429056?s=46&t=Ojt-Zr1pJvwlg2L3jH3InA
"The original drafters of the GRA have a lot to answer for. Looking at you, @ DavidLammy.l"

And this in reply:

twitter.com/glosswitch/status/1602709009068589057?s=46&t=Ojt-Zr1pJvwlg2L3jH3InA
"Love the fact it's too complex to change who inherits a peerage, but a piece of piss to ask rape victims to deny their perception of reality"

I think some of the architects should be asked: "did you intend for this legislation to stop female to male transitioners inheriting a peerage meanwhile male to females could? Did you intend to stop female rape victims having female-centred care and recovery? If so, why are these good things?"

nilsmousehammer · 13/12/2022 17:37

Or more simply 'I'm an Unmentionable'.

DameMaud · 13/12/2022 17:38

Where's the best place to look on twitter to see these responses please? I don't have an account but need to see the change of take to give me some hope!

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 13/12/2022 17:40

DameMaud · 13/12/2022 17:38

Where's the best place to look on twitter to see these responses please? I don't have an account but need to see the change of take to give me some hope!

twitter.com/ForWomenScot

DameMaud · 13/12/2022 17:44

Thanks @MarieIVanArkleStinks 🙏

ResisterRex · 13/12/2022 17:45

In The Times

Definition of woman in Equality Act includes trans, court rules

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/630cd7d4-7b06-11ed-bcd8-855e06175970?shareToken=05f9bd1645ed95538c07e3ceb117b319