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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For Women Scotland Judicial Review 2

420 replies

Signalbox · 06/11/2022 10:44

For Women Scotland Judicial Review: mentioned today in the Times. I didn't realise that this was happening this week on 9th and 10th November according to FWS website...

forwomen.scot/01/09/2022/impact-of-second-judicial-review/

We have a petition for judicial review pending, averring that this revised guidance is not compliant with the court’s decision and is therefore unlawful. The Scottish Government has repeated its earlier error in law by incorporating transsexuals living as women (albeit now restricted to those who hold a GRC) into the definition of woman, thus conflating and confusing two protected characteristics. The Scottish Government has declined to remove the section referring to the GRA and have indicated that it is their understanding that a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Whether they believe a person’s biological sex changes on receipt of a GRC or whether they now dispute that the Equality Act refers to biological sex remains to be seen.

Permission has been granted for the judicial review and the substantive hearing date has been set for 9th and 10th November 2022.

We believe this case puts the Committee in a very difficult position as, until such time as the court makes a ruling, the proper relationship between the GRA and the Equality Act cannot be understood, and nor can the consequences of any legislative reform of the GRA.

If the Scottish Government is correct that a person’s sex changes in the Equality Act with a GRC then it follows that the statement to Committee by Cabinet Secretary, Shona Robison, that the GRR Bill “does not redefine what a man or a woman is”, is incorrect. Clearly, if men who hold a GRC (transwomen) are included in the definition of woman (and women who hold a GRC (transmen) are excluded), then changing the circumstances under which a person is entitled to a GRC will also have the effect of changing the definition of woman.

The GRR Bill proposes a significant change to the eligibility criteria for a GRC and will include, for the first time, those without a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria and those aged 16 and 17. The Scottish Government also estimates a tenfold increase in applications for a GRC. This diversification and expansion of GRC holders from the current situation will significantly change who is counted under the definition of woman.

Whether a person is defined as a man or a woman matters for the successful operation of the Equality Act across a broad range of provisions, including single-sex exceptions, equal pay claims and access to maternity rights, and we are concerned that this is underappreciated and poorly understood by the Scottish Government. It is, of course, vitally important because any action taken by the Scottish Parliament must be careful not to modify any of the protected characteristics, including the definition of woman, lest it strays into reserved matters.

The Scottish Government seems hopelessly confused and inconsistent when it comes to the definition of woman, with at least three different definitions currently in operation across various pieces of legislation and policy. Contrary to the position outlined above, it fully understood that sex was biological when SNP MSPs voted in favour of the Lamont amendment to substitute gender with sex in the Forensic Medical Services (Victims of Sexual Offences) Bill to ensure a request for a female medical examiner resulted in the provision of exactly that, and not a man with a GRC (transwoman).

At the other extreme, the Cabinet Secretary again contradicted the Scottish Government’s current position by asserting a GRC is not required for a man to fall under the definition of woman and access single-sex services for that sex, when she said to Parliament that “the 2010 Act does not apply exceptions specifically to toilets and changing rooms. Trans people can and do use those now, whether they have a GRC or not, and they have been using them for many years.” This fails to recognise the single-sex mandates in legislation relating to schools and workplaces as well as specific examples in the Equality Act Explanatory Notes – we have written separately to you about this matter.

A recent Scottish Government public consultation on the Review of Funding and Commissioning of Violence Against Women and Girls Services redefined a woman as “anyone who defines themselves as a woman”. Not only does this circular statement flagrantly disregard the Inner House ruling but it fails to recognise funding for women’s services can only be allocated via positive action measures in s158 of the Equality Act so must adhere to the protected characteristics. Our letters to both the review group and the Scottish Ministers asking for the consultation to be withdrawn and reissued with a correction have not received any response. We further note the Scottish Government only accepts applications for funding from individual women’s services on production of a LBTI inclusion policy that is transwomen inclusive. Again, this is not dependent on holding a GRC.

In summary, we believe the revised statutory guidance for the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act is unlawful. The Scottish Government believe otherwise and maintain a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Not only does this decouple women’s biological sex from sex-specific provisions in the Equality Act, but it means reforming the GRA also carries a serious risk of intruding on reserved matters. The Scottish Government has a history of inconsistency and lack of understanding on both the definition of woman and the operation of the Equality Act. All of this leaves the Committee exposed, trying to make good law in the midst of a live court action, the outcome of which materially affects the reform.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 13/12/2022 13:34

CharlieParley · 13/12/2022 13:06

It is categorically NOT unlawful to ask to see a GRC.

It's not actually that you would ever ask to see a GRC, but a birth certificate. And it's obviously not forbidden to ask for a birth certificate whenever that makes sense.

However, random people cannot ask to see another person's birth certificate, only a person in an official capacity can.

Thanks, Charlie.

So, any male who has obtained a birth cert that says they is female can't be refused entry to a women's refuge? I don't understand how the judge has decided two things can be true at once.

ArabellaScott · 13/12/2022 13:38

'The Scottish government’s reaction to the ruling, in full: “We are pleased to note the outcome of this challenge.”'

ditalini · 13/12/2022 13:39

ArabellaScott · 13/12/2022 13:34

Thanks, Charlie.

So, any male who has obtained a birth cert that says they is female can't be refused entry to a women's refuge? I don't understand how the judge has decided two things can be true at once.

Unless this comes under one of the judges the "well obviously it means biological sex" instances (cf forensic examiner), but who decides?

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 13/12/2022 13:40

Anyone know the timescale for FWS to decide if they'll appeal or not?
I.e. the deadline for them to decide if they intend to go down that route?

Fenlandia · 13/12/2022 13:45

IANAL but I can't understand how sex, ie the way your body is designed to be male or female, can be such a movable feast in terms of definition and context. It's still being conflated with gender, as I see in the judgement.

What other immutable protected characteristics work like this? Your age is your age no matter how much your teenage self wanted to be 18 to buy alcohol, your pregnancy is not something anyone else can self ID into (yet!)

NecessaryScene · 13/12/2022 13:47

IANAL but I can't understand how sex, ie the way your body is designed to be male or female, can be such a movable feast in terms of definition and context

Because they invented a law saying you could redefine it. If they invented a law saying you could change your legal age or legal pregnancy status, there would be a similar mess.

It's clear at this point the GRA has to be repealed.

happydappy2 · 13/12/2022 14:00

I don't think there is any point appealing this judgement-it does reflect the law-and brilliantly highlights how flawed that law is. Hence the law must be changed.

ditalini · 13/12/2022 14:03

I think there's probably no point in appealing now.

As the whole thing hinges on that illiterate line in the GRA where they confuse gender and sex, the same thing will keep happening.

The GRA needs amended or scrapped. We need clear legislation which guarantees protections in the (fairly limited) instances where people need to be treated differently based on their sex.

When people are being treated differently based on their gender... Well whatever. Don't really care.

CharlieParley · 13/12/2022 14:25

So, any male who has obtained a birth cert that says they is female can't be refused entry to a women's refuge? I don't understand how the judge has decided two things can be true at once.

That's where paragraph 28 of Part 7 of Schedule 3 of the EqA comes in, which gives you the right to refuse entry to someone because they are trans.

It's badly and barely understood, but that's how, if a GRC changes the sex even for the sex-based exceptions, a male can still be excluded.

dragoncheeselady · 13/12/2022 14:31

When the GRR bill passes in Scotland it will only be a matter of time for a man with a GRC to apply and be refused access to a women only service and then sue the service whilst pointing to this judgement saying he is legally entitled to access as the GRC changes his legal sex and I bet they target Beira's place first.

nilsmousehammer · 13/12/2022 14:32

I see on Twitter that no one's missing the nuances of this and the practical impact.

Good.

ArabellaScott · 13/12/2022 14:33

'Gender reassignment

28(1)A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

(2)The matters are—

(a)the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;

(b)the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;

(c)the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.'

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

Okay. But ... if a male is a female by virtue of a GRC, as Lady Haldane is saying, then that 'sex' is meaningless. Because 'sex' can mean anything:

'Not only does it confirm that upon a full GRC being issued the person’s sex becomes that of their acquired gender, but that this change of status has effect “for all purposes”. The language of the statute could scarcely be clearer.'

ArabellaScott · 13/12/2022 14:34

Ah, beg your pardon, she then goes on to caveat that 'for all purposes'

'the acquired gender becomes the person’s sex “for all purposes” subject to any other enactments, or the statutory exceptions listed'

ArabellaScott · 13/12/2022 14:35

Clear as a bell, then isn't it? 'for all purposes' except when it's not. FFS.

BellaAmorosa · 13/12/2022 14:39

CharlieParley · 13/12/2022 14:25

So, any male who has obtained a birth cert that says they is female can't be refused entry to a women's refuge? I don't understand how the judge has decided two things can be true at once.

That's where paragraph 28 of Part 7 of Schedule 3 of the EqA comes in, which gives you the right to refuse entry to someone because they are trans.

It's badly and barely understood, but that's how, if a GRC changes the sex even for the sex-based exceptions, a male can still be excluded.

So Beira's Place would comply with the law in excluding males with a GRC?

BellaAmorosa · 13/12/2022 14:40

But could still include women with a grc?

nilsmousehammer · 13/12/2022 14:41

BellaAmorosa · 13/12/2022 14:39

So Beira's Place would comply with the law in excluding males with a GRC?

The judge, in that download of muddle, seems to be saying that two different laws can use the word 'sex' and mean different things, sometimes biological and sometimes not.

So now I suppose the EqAct and this judgement will go head to head in a court room, which will be fun and should pressure Westminster to do something drastic. Rewriting the EqA to be very specific as to what sex means will be step 1. Step 2, the GRA has to go.

thirdfiddle · 13/12/2022 15:03

The judge, in that download of muddle, seems to be saying that two different laws can use the word 'sex' and mean different things, sometimes biological and sometimes not.

And somehow it's supposed to be obvious from context which is meant, despite the fact there have now been multiple hard fought court cases about just that.
Come on Westminster, this needs cutting through. It's hopeless.

JacquelinePot · 13/12/2022 15:11

FFS! What an absolutely disgusting affront to the entire female sex.

I'm so sick of this shit. Repeal now!

CharlieParley · 13/12/2022 15:14

BellaAmorosa · 13/12/2022 14:40

But could still include women with a grc?

Yes to both of your questions

BellaAmorosa · 13/12/2022 15:21

@CharlieParley

Thanks 👍😊

ResisterRex · 13/12/2022 15:21

Angela Richardson is down to ask a question at PMQs tomorrow, I wonder if she will ask about this. Some of her past contributions to Parliament:

"... as long as the debate continues I will speak up for women and girls in particular, who need to have a voice representing them in the debate, and whose rights to access single-sex spaces needs to be protected."

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2022-02-21/debates/56E94FB0-8DC6-45A0-8EA7-F20208B3E175/details#contribution-3B0B9E24-260C-4E66-885B-575038687E8E

And this one:

Question to Boris
"I welcome the important interim report from Dr Hilary Cass in which she highlights the need for more research into why so many young girls are presenting with gender distress. Will my right hon. Friend agree to meet me and other concerned colleagues to discuss how we can constructively support those young people who are experiencing gender distress?"

His reply:

"I would be very happy to meet my hon. Friend. This is one of those issues that the whole House is coming to realise requires extreme sensitivity, tact, love and care. We must recognise that when people want to make a transition in their lives, they should be treated with the maximum possible generosity and respect. We have systems in this country that allow that and have done for a long time, and we should be very proud of that, but I want to say in addition that I think, when it comes to distinguishing between a man and a woman, the basic facts of biology remain overwhelmingly important."

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2022-03-23/debates/8B11C5F0-031D-42D1-A0DA-B9C3362A015C/details#contribution-25C87921-878F-4AC4-9451-D8212AC818E8

She also asked the Pink News question of Kemi:

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2022-10-26/debates/AE123F8B-4279-4595-A046-6EB9F59E6E35/details#contribution-42D35A05-55FD-432A-979B-F49241E2FA5B

And a question about Kathleen Stock:

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2021-11-01/debates/1A4A5580-EFBB-496E-8427-53E21F902479/details#contribution-26905723-EBBE-474C-8871-772AABCA299C

RhannionKPSS · 13/12/2022 15:29

I’m afraid Lady Haldane hasn’t a clue what she is talking about here. She is meant to set precedents, not muddle along. Very very disappointed in her. What a disgrace and an insult her judgement is.