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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For Women Scotland Judicial Review 2

420 replies

Signalbox · 06/11/2022 10:44

For Women Scotland Judicial Review: mentioned today in the Times. I didn't realise that this was happening this week on 9th and 10th November according to FWS website...

forwomen.scot/01/09/2022/impact-of-second-judicial-review/

We have a petition for judicial review pending, averring that this revised guidance is not compliant with the court’s decision and is therefore unlawful. The Scottish Government has repeated its earlier error in law by incorporating transsexuals living as women (albeit now restricted to those who hold a GRC) into the definition of woman, thus conflating and confusing two protected characteristics. The Scottish Government has declined to remove the section referring to the GRA and have indicated that it is their understanding that a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Whether they believe a person’s biological sex changes on receipt of a GRC or whether they now dispute that the Equality Act refers to biological sex remains to be seen.

Permission has been granted for the judicial review and the substantive hearing date has been set for 9th and 10th November 2022.

We believe this case puts the Committee in a very difficult position as, until such time as the court makes a ruling, the proper relationship between the GRA and the Equality Act cannot be understood, and nor can the consequences of any legislative reform of the GRA.

If the Scottish Government is correct that a person’s sex changes in the Equality Act with a GRC then it follows that the statement to Committee by Cabinet Secretary, Shona Robison, that the GRR Bill “does not redefine what a man or a woman is”, is incorrect. Clearly, if men who hold a GRC (transwomen) are included in the definition of woman (and women who hold a GRC (transmen) are excluded), then changing the circumstances under which a person is entitled to a GRC will also have the effect of changing the definition of woman.

The GRR Bill proposes a significant change to the eligibility criteria for a GRC and will include, for the first time, those without a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria and those aged 16 and 17. The Scottish Government also estimates a tenfold increase in applications for a GRC. This diversification and expansion of GRC holders from the current situation will significantly change who is counted under the definition of woman.

Whether a person is defined as a man or a woman matters for the successful operation of the Equality Act across a broad range of provisions, including single-sex exceptions, equal pay claims and access to maternity rights, and we are concerned that this is underappreciated and poorly understood by the Scottish Government. It is, of course, vitally important because any action taken by the Scottish Parliament must be careful not to modify any of the protected characteristics, including the definition of woman, lest it strays into reserved matters.

The Scottish Government seems hopelessly confused and inconsistent when it comes to the definition of woman, with at least three different definitions currently in operation across various pieces of legislation and policy. Contrary to the position outlined above, it fully understood that sex was biological when SNP MSPs voted in favour of the Lamont amendment to substitute gender with sex in the Forensic Medical Services (Victims of Sexual Offences) Bill to ensure a request for a female medical examiner resulted in the provision of exactly that, and not a man with a GRC (transwoman).

At the other extreme, the Cabinet Secretary again contradicted the Scottish Government’s current position by asserting a GRC is not required for a man to fall under the definition of woman and access single-sex services for that sex, when she said to Parliament that “the 2010 Act does not apply exceptions specifically to toilets and changing rooms. Trans people can and do use those now, whether they have a GRC or not, and they have been using them for many years.” This fails to recognise the single-sex mandates in legislation relating to schools and workplaces as well as specific examples in the Equality Act Explanatory Notes – we have written separately to you about this matter.

A recent Scottish Government public consultation on the Review of Funding and Commissioning of Violence Against Women and Girls Services redefined a woman as “anyone who defines themselves as a woman”. Not only does this circular statement flagrantly disregard the Inner House ruling but it fails to recognise funding for women’s services can only be allocated via positive action measures in s158 of the Equality Act so must adhere to the protected characteristics. Our letters to both the review group and the Scottish Ministers asking for the consultation to be withdrawn and reissued with a correction have not received any response. We further note the Scottish Government only accepts applications for funding from individual women’s services on production of a LBTI inclusion policy that is transwomen inclusive. Again, this is not dependent on holding a GRC.

In summary, we believe the revised statutory guidance for the Gender Representation on Public Boards Act is unlawful. The Scottish Government believe otherwise and maintain a GRC changes a person’s sex for the purposes of the Equality Act. Not only does this decouple women’s biological sex from sex-specific provisions in the Equality Act, but it means reforming the GRA also carries a serious risk of intruding on reserved matters. The Scottish Government has a history of inconsistency and lack of understanding on both the definition of woman and the operation of the Equality Act. All of this leaves the Committee exposed, trying to make good law in the midst of a live court action, the outcome of which materially affects the reform.

OP posts:
Whereareyourshoes · 13/12/2022 12:54

Repeal the GRA

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4688427-repeal-the-gra?page=1

BlackForestCake · 13/12/2022 12:55

The age of Enlightenment ends in Scotland, where it began. Once again religious dogma trumps reality.

And yet, however many laws you pass saying the earth is flat, the earth is not flat.

Evolution is real.

Men aren't women.

RhannionKPSS · 13/12/2022 12:55

bellinisurge · 13/12/2022 12:50

Any scope for mass action of women obtaining a GRC in Scotland?

Yes there is... I predict there will a flood of applications especially as we really don’t need to do much especially wear trousers.

HopRockers · 13/12/2022 12:55

Repeal - sign & share
www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4688427-repeal-the-gra?page=1

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 13/12/2022 12:55

happydappy2 · 13/12/2022 12:49

If I was a male with a GRC I'd be very worried right now. The GRA will be repealed.

I agree.

Interestingly there's no celebration tweet from the Equality Network who intervened in the hearing. I believe they can see the shark has been jumped and their end game just moved ahead of them.

This won't stand & they know this'll invoke even those spineless MSPs voting on the GRRB next week to pause & think.

Princessglittery · 13/12/2022 12:58

What a shame but not unexpected as I have always understood that a GRC changes legal sex. At present only c5000 people in total have one. So legitimately you can say produce birth certificate to use SS spaces. This currently excludes those without a GRC who use the EA2010 gender reassignment protected characteristic.

The quickest legal solution is to get the EA2010 clarified that SS is for biological females, which is why Maya’s petition on getting this clarification is so important. In legislative terms it is a relatively simple change compared with repeal of the GRA. It would also undermine the Scottish GRA which I think has to use the EA2010 as its basis.

The UK gmt are concerned about Scottish self ID and the impact on England and Wales. They appear to be considering if they need to make legislative changes and adding a clarification about biological SS spaces could easily be included.

This is going to take a long time, and we will lose some battles by focusing on small changes that over time gradually change the legal landscape we will succeed.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 13/12/2022 12:59

HopRockers · 13/12/2022 12:55

I think this needs to be bumped too. Frankly, repeal is the only option at this point. Women's rights have been effectively stripped from us by this decision.

Princessglittery · 13/12/2022 13:00

Melroses · 13/12/2022 12:52

^^^^
This

You can ask for birth certificates which reflect legal sex, so all women and girls + c5000 GRC holders. As long as you as everyone for birth certificate you are not acting unlawfully, no need to ask for GRC.

bellinisurge · 13/12/2022 13:01

@HopRockers signed. I foolishly believed the JR would bring clarity. It hasn't. We need good law. Not MRA bollocks. We have, thankfully, equal marriage. So there is no need for the GRA.

SlipperyLizard · 13/12/2022 13:03

I read a bit that said if the draftsman had meant “biological woman” they’d have said that - why? Until recently (and still now, for me), “woman”means adult human female, not some gender feels.

Words should be given their ordinary English meaning, and “woman” is no exception.

nilsmousehammer · 13/12/2022 13:06

So that's Conservative for Women, and the Baroness on it. And at the same conclusion we're at here.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the Westminster offices right now.

CharlieParley · 13/12/2022 13:06

ArabellaScott · 13/12/2022 12:48

It's not just the males with GRCs, though, it's added to the fact one is not allowed to ask to see a GRC, which means any male can effectively be any 'sex' they say they are.

It is categorically NOT unlawful to ask to see a GRC.

It's not actually that you would ever ask to see a GRC, but a birth certificate. And it's obviously not forbidden to ask for a birth certificate whenever that makes sense.

However, random people cannot ask to see another person's birth certificate, only a person in an official capacity can.

BellaAmorosa · 13/12/2022 13:13

BlackForestCake · 13/12/2022 12:55

The age of Enlightenment ends in Scotland, where it began. Once again religious dogma trumps reality.

And yet, however many laws you pass saying the earth is flat, the earth is not flat.

Evolution is real.

Men aren't women.

Quite.
This is one heartbreaking aspect. The absolute pointlessness for wider society. What social, legal, healthcare or sports policy needs to group together a self-selected section of men (unpredictable in number) and most women? None that I can think of.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 13/12/2022 13:13

Eppur si muove

Repeal the GRA it is then

I remember when it felt extreme to say that. Today it just feels logical

ResisterRex · 13/12/2022 13:17

twitter.com/forwomenscot/status/1602653277417521156?s=46&t=yTfxxTk1ZyWh6eoZrd1zmg

"We're disappointed to report that we were not successful with the judicial review. We're still reading through the court decision & analysing the consequences for both the public boards act and the wider impact on the GRR bill.

It's available online here: t.co/r67VBYQl6z"

Signalbox · 13/12/2022 13:20

The claim by the SG that the GRR is just an administrative change is clearly wrong then in light of this judgment.

OP posts:
CharlieParley · 13/12/2022 13:20

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 13/12/2022 12:42

Wonder where this leaves Beira's Place?

There's another provision in the EqA which applies here, for anyone who has a GRC and the example given is for a support group for female survivors. The provision says you can exclude a man with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment who has changed his sex with a GRC from a single-sex service on the basis of having that characteristic.

Normally you would exclude males from a female-only legal set aside because they are male. But if they have legally changed their sex, then you would exclude them because they are trans.

(Schedule 3, Part 7, par. 28 of the Equality Act)

nilsmousehammer · 13/12/2022 13:25

And again, the judgement is that sex means different things in different laws and that's ok.

So if the TQ+ political lobby want to go test in court do the exceptions/EqAct stand and it's one of those times when sex means sex as opposed to a foggy lot of Scotch Mist, more strength to them. The verdict would be very helpful either way.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 13/12/2022 13:25

CharlieParley · 13/12/2022 13:20

There's another provision in the EqA which applies here, for anyone who has a GRC and the example given is for a support group for female survivors. The provision says you can exclude a man with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment who has changed his sex with a GRC from a single-sex service on the basis of having that characteristic.

Normally you would exclude males from a female-only legal set aside because they are male. But if they have legally changed their sex, then you would exclude them because they are trans.

(Schedule 3, Part 7, par. 28 of the Equality Act)

Great, thanks for posting this info.

I knew she had the bases covered as of yesterday, and was in hopes that this latest news wouldn't compromise that.

What a shitshow. I feel for the women of Scotland who were completely sold out when Sturgeon went down the rabbit hole.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 13/12/2022 13:25

Still no tweet from EN.

They don't want this to gain exposure because they know the risk to the GRRB vote.

I think it's important to make sure that every MSP knows the outcome & the implications on what they're being asked to vote on.

nilsmousehammer · 13/12/2022 13:27

This is certainly something I'll be informing my MP on.

But I would think Westminster is humming this afternoon. This is quite a lot of ammunition just handed their way to manage the SNP's Mad Hatter's Teaparty.

littlbrowndog · 13/12/2022 13:28

I knew this would happen. This is Scotland where a woman is anyone who says they are

TheBiologyStupid · 13/12/2022 13:34

nilsmousehammer · 13/12/2022 12:28

It seems somewhat incoherent. The end points about sex sometimes means sex in law and sometimes in other laws means other things....and this is ok and won't confuse anything.

Bollocks. Bloody awful law and this demonstrates that female rights and the GRA are incompatible.

Absolutely this - the penultimate paragraph, 53, is a mess and contradictory. Sex means sex sometimes, but mostly it doesn't. WTF?!