I have a question about toilets

[tingalayo]

If you're concerned that any man can currently enter women's toilets and say "I'm a woman" and nobody is allowed to question it, and you want everyone to use toilets based on their biological sex. Would you not be concerned that then men would then go into women's toilets and claim to be a transman? Wouldn't it just change the thing men have to say to get away with being in women's toilets?

umm… did you read the title of this board? Why would a board about womens rights be concerned with males?

It's just that there are few places people are allowed to say what they think - if you're a times reader, almost all of the Times membership, and many of the telegraph too are GC, which you can see in the comments. But to actually discuss with others is very hard to do. Hence conversations on here. This forum is also predominantly female with kids, so particularly focused on safeguarding.

come on @tingalayo

you wanted to talk specifics

Katie Dolotowski

which bog should he have been in?

Why would you expect to find dissenting views, on an overwhelmingly women’s site where the basic tenets of women’s rights and safety are being discussed?

A huge proportion of women have experienced violence and/or sexual violence at the hands of men. So I’m sorry if you’re disappointed that we haven’t rolled over and capitulated just because you’ve come along with “the truth”.

Can you quote me one instance on this thread where a poster has been anti trans? Where they’ve expressed any desire to see them suffer or discriminated against. You’re assuming a woman protecting womens rights is automatically anti trans. You’re wrong.

“the original protestors looked utterly pathetic …… it was hilarious”. This is the only nasty comment I’ve seen; you made it.

And @tingalayo

No one wants to hurt trans women, no one hates them, that's just what you want to believe of us.

Putting the question to you, then. It has been statistically shown that mixed sex spaces such as changing rooms are less safe for women, in terms of sex attacks. And, if self identified trans women (and particularly those not passing, frankly, because any old predatory man can dress up as or claim to be a woman and not pass) are allowed to share single sex spaces without challenge, all single sex spaces are mixed sex. How many more sex attacks on women is it acceptable to you for women to suffer so that male feelings are not hurt? Is one more sex attack acceptable? Three? A hundred? A thousand?

I looked that up, to see. It was interesting. You can cherry pick various bits of it though. More people said that trans women should not be allowed to use woman's toilets, than said they should. But among women it was the opposite. Men care about this issue more than women do apparently. I wonder why that is.
Also, being passionate about it and paying a lot of attention to it is definitely a niche position and the survey bears that out.

"Feminism: Sex and Gender Discussions". Plenty of people would say the rights of trans women are also women's rights so I don't think its inherent in the title.

Most people don't understand that 90%+ of TW have a penis and intend to keep it. Once they do, they are pretty firm in their views. Men and women. Men just find it easier to express that fact socially. Bullying women to be kind is acceptable - it's why few people are bullying straight men to sleep with trans women

On what specific basis are transwomens rights women's rights? Transwomen are only transwomen because of their inner feelings, so what exactly do they have in common with women which would make the above statement true? I don't get it?

I'm just saying plenty of people think that and it's not inherent in the title! If you didn't understand Mumsnet you wouldn't know this forum was limited to one specific view only.

Also @tingalayo, Once you are looking at someone who hasn't had gender reassignment, most women do not want them in their spaces. That's a fact. Among people who have just been surveyed randomly and haven't given it any thought at all. Pretty high.

Hormones have an effect on trans women's penises, if they have them. They can shrink and become incapable of erection. It's not necessarily the same as a man's penis.

Why are you avoiding answering the questions asking your thoughts about Katie Dolotowski@tingalayo? 🤔

I know NOTHING about this person and this case beyond a paragraph summary and I can't find anything longer than that, I'm not going to express an opinion on it.

All penises are mens penises. No woman has a penis. Ever. Not one.

And that’s the heart of the matter.

I don’t believe that a trans woman is a woman. They are a man identifying as a woman. And that’s fine, it’s their right. But it’s also my right to be honest about biology and the lived experience of women.

It’s not my role to validate a trans woman by being reassigned as a cis woman. I’m not going to gaslight myself or others by pretending a man is the same sex as me.

Google is your friend, but never mind, just go on avoiding the inconvenient questions.

@tingalayo

Penis function depends on what quantity of hormones people have taken. The ones who brag online about using our spaces and masturbating in bra fitting rooms clearly have adequate function!

I bet you won't answer my query about how many more sex attacks on women are ok to prevent male hurt feelings.

That's just semantics. A lot of this is semantics.

And not all TW are on hormones

No love it’s called facts. And biology. And sanity.

The case of Katie Dolotowski has been covered hugely on line. I’m surprised you can only find a small paragraph.

I think these kinds of threads are extremely useful. People who haven’t been exposed to anything much beyond #bekind, are often shocked to learn the reality of what can happen when single sex spaces for women are opened to men.

So I would encourage you to find out more about Katie K. It will help explain why many women are seeking to protect sex based rights, and why it’s not an ideology or an echo chamber.

A person can be legally recognised as a woman and still retain their penis.

Doesn’t make them a woman though. Makes them a man with a GRC. A legal fiction. A lie.