I have a question about toilets

[tingalayo]

If you're concerned that any man can currently enter women's toilets and say "I'm a woman" and nobody is allowed to question it, and you want everyone to use toilets based on their biological sex. Would you not be concerned that then men would then go into women's toilets and claim to be a transman? Wouldn't it just change the thing men have to say to get away with being in women's toilets?

@tingalayo there's no other definition. Your first bit was correct. And that's where it ends.

This is an enormous amount of wangling and word salad with the intent of trying to prevent female people having accessible female only spaces.

No. Not ok.

And after 7 pages of discussion, there's the exact same post over again as the one at the start of this conversation.

Bye OP.

Females need equality of access. Sorry that bugs you.

I think anyone of the male sex using Female single sex spaces is a massive red flag.

Previously it tended to only be those who had had surgery and the numbers were so small so pretty negligible.

No longer the case and a lot of middle aged men who have recently transitioned or ar cross dressers who are also now accessing female only space.

A transman can use the female spaces if they wish as they are female. They may look male, but I suspect quite quickly you could tell they are really female. An actual man - normally indisputable.

OP. You were doing ok with the definition of woman until you threw in gender and transition. Gender is not sex. Transition doesn’t alter your biological sex, just your body parts.

For nearly all people, their levels of testosterone and their primary and secondary sexual characteristics are entirely predictable based on their sex. Mammals are usually able to determine members of the opposite sex by their visible and obvious sex differences. Humans are no exception. Of course, if a very few people have taken steps to deliberately obscure or remove some typical indicators of their sex then it's not so obvious.

Of course, individuals themselves know what sex they are, as that's observed in utero via scans, or identified via maternal blood tests, amniocentesis, or at birth. For the very few cases where that's inconclusive, further investigations will be needed.

But you know all this.

It’s easy to tell the difference OP, so you needn’t worry.

Part of me hopes that you are actually male OP.

If you are a woman, and genuinely don’t recognise why women need single sex spaces then that’s a problem. For you, as I suspect this makes you potentially vulnerable, and for other women, as you’re so dismissive of their experience/opinions that you’re happy to undermine their safety.

@tingalayo . here educate yourself about what happens when men who enjoy role playing as women go free range in the bogs

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

great, now you understand what happened, do you agree that Katie Dolotowski should have been in the ladies?

No - research shows that females are better at spotting people of the opposite sex than males. It's an evolutionary trait to protect women from aggressive, angry men.

What about those people though? What if a trans women never went through male puberty, doesn't have the testosterone levels of average men and doesn't have male genitals, and looks in every way like a woman? In what sense are they a man in any way that is important?

Those people dont change the definition of sex, female and women, and dont stop the need for single sex provision.

Are you saying that because some men can disguise themselves as women with some success, we have to accept all men who say they are women into our spaces?

and OP wants to talk specifics

I'm interested to know if she agrees that it was correct for a woman to be arrested in Cardiff last week for asking a man to leave the women's toilet.

I dunno what his gender identity was, or what he was role playing at the time, but he was a fella

Okay thank you all for having me here. I lurk on these forums a bit and I've never seen anyone of non-GC ideology post in here so I was wondering what would happen if one did. It seems to be a complete echo chamber and I was curious. Before I found this forum I didn't realise people like all of you existed and I was shocked at the hatred of trans people disguised with rhetoric and "science". I had some slightly gender critical views myself until I found this forum but they've all gone away now I know what trans people are really up against.
I never thought I would win any argument in here as such but I don't think that's because I'm wrong. I just think you have an ideology which says trans people are mostly predators or pervs, and the nice ones are misguided and should live as their sex assigned at birth regardless of how unhappy that makes them. I think it must be rooted in hatred or perhaps just the "ick" factor since you all care enough about it to make it such a big part of your lives. It's a bit difficult to argue against it though, it's like arguing with a Christian about the existence of God so I'm gonna bow out now.
I look forward to hopefully seeing your community on a Louis Theroux documentary in future alongside the Westboro Baptist Church or whatever.

Third spaces for those who prefer mixed sex or are concerned about using single sex makes sense.

There’s a well-known trans woman who, I believe, was on puberty blockers and transitioned early. Their sex is still very, very clear.

Males - no matter how they present - are a potential risk to women. That’s one of the reasons we have single sex toilets. How many nice men are there in the U.K.? Loads obviously, but they’re not welcome in Female Toilets either - because they’re male. I find it completely pathetic the lengths some people will go to try to prevent women (adult human females) having single sex spaces.

Hilarious flounce post by OP. My 11 year old can do better.

Blimey

ahhh, the flounce

'I used to be gender critical but now I've changed my mind' is a nice touch

where will you get your bog chat if you don't come here OP? You'll be back

Flouncers corner is that way ————————-> byeeeee

Flouncing? I'm happy to stay if you want?

I don't think anyone here has EVER said 'trans people are mostly predators or pervs'. Let me spell it out for you OP.

what we are saying, which is easily backed up by crime statistics, is that predators and pervs are mostly men
therefore, when a trans woman enters a female only space there is a greater chance that that person is a predator or perv than if they were a woman
similarly if a man enters a female only space there is a greater chance that they are a predator or perv than if they were a woman
normal decent men don't feel affronted by this fact, why would they, and are more than happy to stay out of female only spaces.

Hope that is clear, I don't think I can make it any clearer without pictures.

So, if there are some men/transwomen who would prefer not to be in a male only space for whatever reason, it is up to them to argue for a mixed space.

Not sure why we are not seeing this campaign though.

great

talk to me about Katie Dolotowski

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

which toilet should he have been in?

I just think you have an ideology which says trans people are mostly predators or pervs, and the nice ones are misguided and should live as their sex assigned at birth regardless of how unhappy that makes them

Why do you want kittens to be tortured, OP? No? What’s that - you don’t? Well, my statement makes as much sense as yours 🙄 I do NOT think trans people are “mostly predators” any more than I think my lovely dad, gay men, 95 year old Barry, 30 year old John next door is a predator, but I don’t want males in female toilets. Why aren’t gay men, Barry, my Dad, and John complaining? Why don’t they think they’re banned from Ladies loos because they’re predators? 🤔 Because it’s a load of crap! 🙄

And no, I don’t think all trans people should be refused transition. It’s the answer for a small number of people, and if that brings them peace, then great.

I am sick to fuckery of GC being misrepresented. You want mixed sex toilets? Lovely - I support you, that’s brilliant. Knock yourself out. But other women don’t and we’re entitled to single sex spaces, including toilets, refuges, etc.

I had heard all about Mumsnet being transphobic and I came here to take a horrified peek and leave - only to find that the vast majority of people here hold perfectly reasonable views.

The truth is, lots of people do come on here to tell us, or explain why we are wrong. But they never stick around because they cant explain why women and girls cannot have space away from men.

Alright, since you're still asking me questions.

Some people on this forum do think trans women are mostly perverts, somebody literally said to me on this very thread that "most men who like to role play as women have a fetish" or something like that. But those of you who think it's okay for people to transition if that's right for them, why is it not a nuanced discussion about balancing rights of different people? The rights of women to have single sex spaces Vs the right of trans people to exist in the world in the way that is right for them? If your argument is that you just don't give a crap about trans people then....okay I guess nobody can argue against that can they.