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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I have a question about toilets

300 replies

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 10:41

If you're concerned that any man can currently enter women's toilets and say "I'm a woman" and nobody is allowed to question it, and you want everyone to use toilets based on their biological sex. Would you not be concerned that then men would then go into women's toilets and claim to be a transman? Wouldn't it just change the thing men have to say to get away with being in women's toilets?

OP posts:
Asdavaluesausage · 30/10/2022 18:20

So @tingalayo what is your solution. How do you balance the needs of women and girls who want and require single sex spaces with the wants of males who wish to access those spaces.

NeverOneBiscuit · 30/10/2022 18:22

I don’t have an ideology.

Trans people are not “up against” anything. It’s women who are up against a group of men and their allies screaming “terf” when we simply state that people can’t change sex, and that we’d like to keep women only spaces for women, not men identifying as women.

It seems like an echo chamber to you. It’s actually a collective of women’s lived experience, and knowledge of a topic that could and does have a material affect upon our lives, because of our biology. You can’t identify out of that. I’m sure women in Iran or Afghanistan wish they could identify out of their sex based oppression.

If you were genuinely looking for enlightenment, maybe read about the Cass report. The Tavistock. The Charity Commission’s current investigation into Mermaids. The NHS’s proposed new guidance on children with identity issues. Stonewall, and how multiple organisations have pulled away from them for guidance and training. AGP. De-transitioners. Trans women in female prisons. The massive over representation of autistic girls in those children presenting with identity issues, most of whom have co-existing mental health problems.

Or you could of course just post in a disingenuous way about toilets, hoping to skewer posters with “you thinks all trans are perverts.” That’s not what this thread is suggesting at all, apart from in the echo chamber in your head.

Signalbox · 30/10/2022 18:22

But those of you who think it's okay for people to transition if that's right for them, why is it not a nuanced discussion about balancing rights of different people? The rights of women to have single sex spaces Vs the right of trans people to exist in the world in the way that is right for them?

So you would agree there is a conflict of rights? That’s unusual for a TRA.

StillWeRise · 30/10/2022 18:26

I don't get why
'existing in the world in the way that is right for them'
equates to
males going in to female only spaces
?
can you explain that?

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 18:27

Signalbox · 30/10/2022 18:22

But those of you who think it's okay for people to transition if that's right for them, why is it not a nuanced discussion about balancing rights of different people? The rights of women to have single sex spaces Vs the right of trans people to exist in the world in the way that is right for them?

So you would agree there is a conflict of rights? That’s unusual for a TRA.

In some cases there might be, yeah. It's a complicated area and I don't have all the answers myself. I don't see nuanced discussion on this forum though, just anger and disgust and whipping each other up into a froth. I certainly never see any post that in any way acknowledges that trans people's lives and feelings should be a consideration. And if that's because you don't think their lives and feelings should be given any consideration then that's something nobody can argue against, I can't persuade you to care about somebody you don't care about.

OP posts:
Smilelesstalkmore · 30/10/2022 18:28

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 18:17

Alright, since you're still asking me questions.

Some people on this forum do think trans women are mostly perverts, somebody literally said to me on this very thread that "most men who like to role play as women have a fetish" or something like that. But those of you who think it's okay for people to transition if that's right for them, why is it not a nuanced discussion about balancing rights of different people? The rights of women to have single sex spaces Vs the right of trans people to exist in the world in the way that is right for them? If your argument is that you just don't give a crap about trans people then....okay I guess nobody can argue against that can they.

Do you, or do you not believe that women and girls have a right to single sex spaces, away from all males however they identify, in certain situations.

Yes or no?

TheKeatingFive · 30/10/2022 18:29

But those of you who think it's okay for people to transition if that's right for them, why is it not a nuanced discussion about balancing rights of different people?

Because people transitioning to whatever gender identity they want is irrelevant to them having rights to sex specific spaces. It's not even complicated, it's right there in black and white.

Conflating sex and gender, as the TRAs want, will put women and girls in greater danger. That's not in dispute, it's already happening, examples have been raised in this thread. Quite why you're okay with vulnerable women being collateral damage is beyond me.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 30/10/2022 18:29

. I certainly never see any post that in any way acknowledges that trans people's lives and feelings should be a consideration

Their feelings should never come before a females safety and right to safe space.

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 18:30

StillWeRise · 30/10/2022 18:26

I don't get why
'existing in the world in the way that is right for them'
equates to
males going in to female only spaces
?
can you explain that?

Well there has to be an answer, somewhere. Trans women need somewhere they can go to the toilet in public don't they. Having to go into the men's toilets might be deeply distressing and/or dangerous for them.

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 30/10/2022 18:31

Trans women need somewhere they can go to the toilet in public don't they.

If they aren't happy with current provision, they campaign for third spaces. Women aren't their shields.

Asdavaluesausage · 30/10/2022 18:34

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 18:30

Well there has to be an answer, somewhere. Trans women need somewhere they can go to the toilet in public don't they. Having to go into the men's toilets might be deeply distressing and/or dangerous for them.

But that’s not womens problem is it? Why should women sacrifice themselves to be human shields for GNC males? We’re not support humans for males. If TW feel unsafe in male spaces they can either campaign for third spaces or take it up with men. Women have got enough on their plate dealing with the shitshow we have to live through.

StillWeRise · 30/10/2022 18:35

so....at the moment the chance of distress and danger for transwomen is more important than the proven danger to women and girls?

I see.

It really isn't up to us to solve this problem. Its up to men. Men could, for example, have a campaign to welcome transwomen into mens toilets and they could promise to intervene of they ever saw a transwoman being threatened or insulted in a mens toilet. How about that for a solution? Of course its not one I can implement because I'm not a man.

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 30/10/2022 18:35

TheKeatingFive · 30/10/2022 18:31

Trans women need somewhere they can go to the toilet in public don't they.

If they aren't happy with current provision, they campaign for third spaces. Women aren't their shields.

this. TW have absolutely no right in womens toilets, as they aren't women. Happy for them to campaign for their own separate toilets.

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 18:35

NeverOneBiscuit · 30/10/2022 18:22

I don’t have an ideology.

Trans people are not “up against” anything. It’s women who are up against a group of men and their allies screaming “terf” when we simply state that people can’t change sex, and that we’d like to keep women only spaces for women, not men identifying as women.

It seems like an echo chamber to you. It’s actually a collective of women’s lived experience, and knowledge of a topic that could and does have a material affect upon our lives, because of our biology. You can’t identify out of that. I’m sure women in Iran or Afghanistan wish they could identify out of their sex based oppression.

If you were genuinely looking for enlightenment, maybe read about the Cass report. The Tavistock. The Charity Commission’s current investigation into Mermaids. The NHS’s proposed new guidance on children with identity issues. Stonewall, and how multiple organisations have pulled away from them for guidance and training. AGP. De-transitioners. Trans women in female prisons. The massive over representation of autistic girls in those children presenting with identity issues, most of whom have co-existing mental health problems.

Or you could of course just post in a disingenuous way about toilets, hoping to skewer posters with “you thinks all trans are perverts.” That’s not what this thread is suggesting at all, apart from in the echo chamber in your head.

It's an ideology though. It's a very specific and forceful one and most people don't share it. Yes it's an echo chamber because you're so hostile to other opinions that people know not to bother you here.

OP posts:
RoseslnTheHospital · 30/10/2022 18:36

Perhaps transwomen could campaign for mens toilets to be converted into mixed sex then and leave womens facilities alone. Or turn the mens into a set of self enclosed "gender neutral" toilets. Or for men to be more accepting of people who present differently in mens toilets, so it isn't distressing or dangerous for transwomen to use them.

TheKeatingFive · 30/10/2022 18:37

most people don't share it

You keeping saying this doesnt make it true you know.

Smilelesstalkmore · 30/10/2022 18:38

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 18:30

Well there has to be an answer, somewhere. Trans women need somewhere they can go to the toilet in public don't they. Having to go into the men's toilets might be deeply distressing and/or dangerous for them.

Womens spaces do not exist merely to provide validation or protection to males who don't want to use the men's. That's not what womens spaces are for.

We are not human shields or support humans to pander to male desire. Male violence against transwomen is not womens issue to sort out. It's the job of the Owen Jones and Billy Braggs of the world, who apparently care so much about the safety of transwomen, but only provided it doesn't inconvenience them, to sort that kind of thing out.

TheKeatingFive · 30/10/2022 18:42

There are plenty of GC views on Twitter btw.

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 18:47

I'm glad you're all so invigorated by my presence. You could have just taken the piss out of my flounce and left it at that but now we're back on toilets! What fun!

OP posts:
tingalayo · 30/10/2022 18:51

TheKeatingFive · 30/10/2022 18:37

most people don't share it

You keeping saying this doesnt make it true you know.

I stumbled upon one of the protests against drag queen storytime and most of the crowd were in support of the drag queen. The few of the original protesters looked utterly pathetic. I mean that's one protest yeah. But it was hilarious.

OP posts:
FortunesFavour · 30/10/2022 18:55

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 18:47

I'm glad you're all so invigorated by my presence. You could have just taken the piss out of my flounce and left it at that but now we're back on toilets! What fun!

S’alright - the more people that see the illogic of your arguments and your disingenuousness the better really.

NeverOneBiscuit · 30/10/2022 19:00

There’s no froth or disgust on this thread. I feel the arguments are very straightforward as we are talking about basic concepts. Sex isn’t on a spectrum, it’s not nuanced, it’s male and female.

Some people may not want to hear that, but it doesn’t stop it being true. I think it’s unfair and cruel to tell a child that they can change sex, that they were born in the wrong body etc

People with genuine body dysphoria who go on to medically transition have always been a tiny percentage of the population. It’s a horrendous condition, which requires intense treatment including psychotherapy. For many the transition still brings no peace, and I’m sure most people have complete sympathy for such individuals; I know I do.

But that’s not the current debate. We’re being told to refer to high profile, white, middle aged men with huge privilege, such as Eddie Izzard, as “she”. EI says “I’m a woman” and women are expected to nod along. EI describes switching between girl and boy mode. For starters they are nearly 60, so not a boy or a girl. They also say they feel like a girl when they’ve got their high heels on. Gender stereotype anyone? I never wear high heels - am I a man?

Philip Bunce, or Pip when they go to Credit Suisse dressed as a woman. They spend half the week as a man, the rest “as” a woman, on which days they use the female toilets. That’s not gender dysphoria or somebody considering transition, it’s cross dressing, or AGP. If a man has either of the latter in his life that’s fine, but don’t tell me I have to accept them as a female and use female pro nouns. They’re a man.

Male prisoners, in most UK cases sex offenders, self identifying as women to be incarcerated in female prisons. Google Karen White.

In sexual assault cases the female victim in court has been ordered by the judge to refer to her male attacker as she, as the attacker has subsequently identified as a woman.

This is what women are being presented with when it comes to arguing for our sex based rights. The froth and screaming comes from the other side. You only have to watch the Standing for Women meetings on YouTube to see who hurls the insults and threats, who tries to disrupt and drown out. It’s not the women.

And before you ask, I’ve used the pronoun “they” where necessary instead of he or she. I do this because I don’t want to be banned. What does that tell you, eh?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/10/2022 19:04

@tingalayo

Katie Dolotowski

metro.co.uk/2019/03/16/transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-morrisons-toilet-8914577/

grabbed a 10 year old girl's face and ordered her to remove her trousers

but he was in the right bog, right?

c'mon

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 19:13

This thread proves this forum is an echo chamber. I'm the only one here with views in support of trans people. AIBU always has some people who agree with the OP. Why do threads on this forum never have dissenting views? It's because your worldview is niche, you've been kicked out of other spaces, this is a "safe" space for you to congregate and everybody knows not to engage with you. It's funny that you think the reason for that is that you're unquestionably correct.

OP posts:
motherofthelittlescreamingone · 30/10/2022 19:15

Actually @tingalayo, the most recent YouGov surveys suggest that most support single sex spaces and sports and don't think TWAW, especially if said TW has a penis. Most want to be kind, but do want to draw a line. That's a majority view

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