I have a question about toilets

[tingalayo]

If you're concerned that any man can currently enter women's toilets and say "I'm a woman" and nobody is allowed to question it, and you want everyone to use toilets based on their biological sex. Would you not be concerned that then men would then go into women's toilets and claim to be a transman? Wouldn't it just change the thing men have to say to get away with being in women's toilets?

Try telling a woman that’s been raped by a man that the fact he had a penis was just semantics.

Is this widespread or is it one person and one thing that happened? I mean, most swimming pool changing rooms are mixed sex and nobody bats an eyelid. Anyone could take pictures under the wall there couldn't they. I've never known anyone who was worried about that.
And any predatory man could be lurking in female toilets at any time.

A person can be legally recognised as a woman and still retain their penis.

Still doesn't make them a woman though 😴

That is still just completely your own opinion and nothing to do with "biology". It's recognised in law that some people can be legally a woman and still have a penis and therefore a woman can have a penis.

We have regulars like MargaritaPie and Discovereads, DisgustedofManchester drops by now and again, even Robin Moira White as well as many similar to you who just stop by so we certainly do have dissenting voices. I really don’t think this place is an echo chamber. There are frequently discussions where posters hold differing opinions. One of the few places where this can actually happen.

If the rapist was a trans woman with a penis, whether you called that rapist a man or a woman is semantics yeah. It's words.

That is still just completely your own opinion and nothing to do with "biology". It's recognised in law that some people can be legally a woman and still have a penis and therefore a woman can have a penis

Are you saying that you think a legal document has the power to change biology? Many of us here and I reckon most people in the world know, or if you prefer, believe penis = man.

Tag me next time one of them stops by!

(By the way, my personal view is that I am happy to share with a post surgical TW as no penis and frankly their commitment is so great that I am happy to believe they are lower risk and not just doing things part time for a thrill, but I appreciate not all women believe that in here, but no TW in women's sports due to inherent genetic advantage)

Semantics

its not just semantics to the poor woman that’s been raped I assure you. Your answer just goes to show how very little women’s dignity and safety mean to you.

If semantics is of no consequence then why the big deal about calling a man a man and using he if he wants to be called a woman and referred to as she. It is all mere semantics so we should be free to speak freely, am I right?

(But I still don't believe a TW is the same as a female woman. Surgery or not. I don't believe in a female or feminine essence or brain - I think this is regressive as an idea and has been used for too long to oppress women as it is. The idea of this being sold to my kids appalls me).

Nobody would say all men are predators and perverts, yet most parents don't want their small children going alone into male toilets because men as a sex class are higher risk..

In my city there has been a 5 year old boy raped in a supermarket toilet and a pre-teen girl flashed at in a restaurant outside the toilets and those are just the cases that I remember and were reported. Allowing any class of male to use women's single sex spaces sets a precedent that puts women and girls at risk. When any man can exploit uncertainty around 'gender' and the fear of being name-called or worse then male use of single sex spaces is normalised. Predators exploit loopholes.

I'm sure many of us know absolutely lovely trans people but we don't make laws and policy around people we like and get on with. In thinking about transwomen lives, then I have every respect for Fionne and Miranda who use male facilities and support third spaces and every sympathy for those struggling but that doesn't mean I'm happy to dismantle safeguarding.

Katie K is one case. There are others. How many is acceptable ? You’ve already been asked this question by another poster.

Primark recently announced they would be returning to single sex changing rooms. A few months ago an off duty police officer was caught filming a mother and daughter in a mixed changing room. He was holding his phone under the partition. There have been other instances but this lead to their change of policy.

There’s also a thread on here where women were asked to post examples of incidents that had happened in mixed sex spaces, such as gyms, swimming pools, changing rooms. It’s sickening, and goes on page after page.

Yes, a predatory man could hide in a female toilet. But he would have knowingly gone there uninvited, and women would know he shouldn’t be there. The #bekind movement wants to invite men in purely on the basis that they say they are women. So that’s the green light for your predator.

Lots of people don’t like mixed sex changing rooms, but often now there’s no alternative. It’s also socially awkward to say so, and some organisations will take exception. It’s usually resolved by self exclusion, people just feel too uncomfortable to use the facilities. So they’re actually the ones being discriminated against.

I mean if it is all semantics let’s just go with spaces for penis people and spaces for vulva people. Because it is the body we are talking about and there should be places for bodies with penises and places for bodies with vulvas to be separate from one another because our bodies are different, have different functions and processes and we need space for these bodily functions and processes which are separate from the other body type.

When I say penis people I am including those who have had a penis but lost it through accident, injury or intentional removal.

Er, no. The rights of people undergoing gender reassignment are protected under the 2010 Equalities Act as a category separate from sex-based rights.

Men are not women.

But enough of this sea-lioning @tingalayo You've behaved quite rudely - you asked a question which PPs have answered in good faith, from their multiple points of view. But your question was not in good faith.

The post of yours I’ve quoted shows your true colours. For whom are you collecting screen shots?

I'm not saying it's of no consequence. I'm saying it's semantics and not biology. People keep making the argument that they're on the side of biology. You can change all sorts of things about biology. You can change hormones and secondary sexual characteristics like hair and voice. You can remove genitals or change them into completely different genitals. A person can change everything about their biology except for the height they've already attained, some of their bone structure, and the type of gametes they can produce. And none of those things have any thing to do with whether a person has a propensity to being a sexual predator. What bit of biology is the important bit?

No I'm not posting in good faith, you know I'm not. Why are you all continuing to engage with me?

What bit of biology is the important bit?
The sex you were born into and which can never change.

I see the “it’s just semantics” has been wheeled out. The last refuge of the scoundrel, as the saying goes.

“whether you called that rapist a man or a woman is semantics”

It’s not, and it’s not a choice It’s a man with a penis raping a woman. Even if they’ve got a certificate, a female name and request female speech pronouns they’re still a man. That’s why they’ve got a penis. I know Google’s not your strong point but look up the statutory definition of rape.

The fact you can use such casual language in respect of such an horrific act is telling.

A man is still a man if he is on medication or has an amputation or removal of an organ, ditto a woman.

Male and female are reproductive categories and we cannot change from one to the other. My partner cannot give birth because he is a man nothing will change that. I cannot inseminate anyone, I do not produce sperm and I never will. Men and women are different and studies show that men who claim to be women have exactly the same propensity for violence as other men. Despite taking cross sex hormones they will always be bigger, stronger and faster than us women.

“I’m not posting in good faith”

I never thought you were. The language of faux ignorance, quickly followed by accusations then some casual unpleasantness - seen it so many times before.

But it’s a good opportunity to shine a light on this issue.

Chromosomes - can't change
What body you had in the past - can't change
What puberty you went through - can't change
Height you attained - can't change
Gametes you produce - cant change except to remove the ability
Genitals - can change
Hormones - can change
Breasts - can change
Hair - can change
Voice - can change to an extent
Muscles - can change

Those are all biological fact. Whether you can change "biological sex" depends on which combination of those you define sex as, and that's all opinion and language.

It is such a familiar isn’t it pattern NeverOneBiscuit? Also the bit about “I used to be GC but then I saw the light/visited Mumsnet/was freed from the cult” etc