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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman harassed in women's bathroom by a gender critical woman who thinks she is trans, she is upset by the experience.

624 replies

MargaritaPie · 29/10/2022 23:16

twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1586295024672808961

Woman harassed in women's bathroom by a gender critical woman who thinks she is trans, she is upset by the experience.
OP posts:
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10
Smilelesstalkmore · 30/10/2022 08:11

Discovereads · 30/10/2022 01:34

God you’re naive. If the man were intent on harming you, the 🚺sign on the door isn’t going to stop him at all. Didn’t stop the man who raped a woman in the toilet on a Southeastern train in East Sussex earlier this year…just do a search. Lots of not escaping going on in toilets.

No it doesn't completely keep women safe, nothing is completely safe, but it is a safeguarding measure and generally work quite well. Which is why statistically unisex facilities are more dangerous for women.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Also, ironic that in the example you have given there to show how unsafe toilets are,the toilets in question would have been gender neutral.

Naunet · 30/10/2022 08:11

TeaKlaxon · 30/10/2022 07:47

I am shocked* that so called feminists when presented with evidence of a woman being harassed decide to:

(a) quibble about terminology; or

(b) claim she’s making it up.

There are LOTS of examples of women who are not transgender being harassed by transphobes in bathrooms.

And let’s remember that one of the high priestesses of transphobia, ‘Posie Parker’ has said that people should enter womens bathrooms to challenge trans people WITH GUNS. How might that have worked out in this case?

*JK I’m not shocked at all. Because transphobes here and elsewhere are actually about as far from feminism as it’s possible to get.

Feminism isn’t about pandering to male demands just because they pop on a dress. This wouldn’t be happening if men stayed out of our spaces.

Ohnohedident · 30/10/2022 08:12

Its in the face, nothing to do with build or clothing.

I saw a young bloke, nice looking chap, in 'womans'' clothes on the bus, full make up and long hair. (I suspect from his manor he though he 'passed' (he looked lovely btw))
Mens faces and womans faces, even though it must be only millimeters difference in the jaw, forehead, the set of the eyes, but its immediately obvious.

I wonder if, due to evolution and women being at such an elevated threat from men, that men can't tell so easily.
But actually that does not hold water as men are also at a hugely elevated threat from other men compared to women.
I think everyone can tell.

Summerfun54321 · 30/10/2022 08:13

All those seeking erasure of the term “cis woman” in favour of the word “woman” 🙋🏻‍♀️

goldfinchonthelawn · 30/10/2022 08:14

Brefugee · 30/10/2022 08:03

I am shocked that so called feminists when presented with evidence of a woman being harassed decide to:*

Well, we could adopt the TRA tactic of saying that it happens so rarely as to be negligible and we can safely ignore it.

But. I have mentioned the issue of people approaching butch lesbians in female toilets before, and have been told off for making up stories etc (i know several butch lesbians, many ex forces women do).

But people do make mistakes. Often it's uncomfortable. But i wonder how often it ends up like this? I've witnessed it - usually it ends up with embarassment, lots of apologies and awkward shuffling off

My feeling is - if women and transwomen enter a toilet, use it, wash their hands and go, there is ZERO issue.

If male perverts in frocks abuse trans rights to gain access to women's spaces, there is a MASSIVE problem. Judge the behaviour, not the existence, of the people you come into contact with.

I am baffled and have been for years why treanswomen don't join forces with women to address the issue of perverts threatening women and abusing trans rights. Until the trans movement is on board with this genuine and very troubling issue, feminists and trans rights activists are going to keep clashing.

Asdavaluesausage · 30/10/2022 08:14

Want a pain au chocolat whilst we wait @VinoDino ?

Ohnohedident · 30/10/2022 08:14

Also hairline.

TeaKlaxon · 30/10/2022 08:16

MorningPlatypus · 30/10/2022 07:51

If yor priority as a feminist is giving men access to women's spaces, you're not a feminist. You're a men's rights activist.

Transwomen are men. That's factual and it's not transphobic to say so.

My priority as a feminist is protecting women’s reproductive rights from the sustained attacks they are under.

My priority as a feminist is changing an economic model that is built on low wages and attacks on a welfare state that disproportionately hurt women.

My priority as a feminist will never be shitting on trans women in league with the right and far right who want to undermine those priorities.

MorningPlatypus · 30/10/2022 08:16

Summerfun54321 · 30/10/2022 08:13

All those seeking erasure of the term “cis woman” in favour of the word “woman” 🙋🏻‍♀️

Me! There's no such thing as cis women.

There are women and non-women.

Norma27 · 30/10/2022 08:16

Asdavaluesausage · 30/10/2022 07:19

I think it’s a woman who is part of the Construction Industry Scheme for subcontractors, but how would @MargaritaPie know? Did she have her CSCS card dangling from a lanyard?

Whenever I see CIS used I think of builders etc! I used to work in tax and advise on the CIS scheme many years ago!

Ohnohedident · 30/10/2022 08:16

I don't get the appeal of pan au chocolate, especially when you can have the unrivalledly delicious round ring thing with raisins in.

Asdavaluesausage · 30/10/2022 08:17

So @goldfinchonthelawn how do we tell the difference? 90% of TW retain their penis. To be trans according to the TRA you just need to say the magic words. How are women supposed to know who to let into their spaces and who to exclude?

Why not just have sex segregated toilets. TW will be perfectly fine in the male toilets, and if not, that’s not actually womens problem to solve is it?

Asdavaluesausage · 30/10/2022 08:17

Norma27 · 30/10/2022 08:16

Whenever I see CIS used I think of builders etc! I used to work in tax and advise on the CIS scheme many years ago!

Same.

Ohnohedident · 30/10/2022 08:20

Why does anyone put PIE in their name? Given the accusations leveled at Queer theory I would have thought it would be the last thing to add in there?

HarlanPepper · 30/10/2022 08:21

Ohnohedident · 30/10/2022 08:01

I smell bullshit.
Im almost six foot with broad shoulders. I wear mens clothes and have short hair most of the time. I am 55 yrs old.

I have NEVER EVER been spoken to, looked at funny or anything else while in woman's spaces.

Women can tell very easily someones sex.

I am similar height and build to you. I've had one instance of being challenged about using the ladies, in a theatre. The person who challenged me - an usher who genuinely thought I'd got the wrong door - was effusively apologetic when she realised her error. It was all a bit awkward at the time; probably more so for her than for me. But it was a funny story pretty quickly.

Ohnohedident · 30/10/2022 08:23

A security guard in PC World once called me 'Sir'.

We both giggled about it like a pair of school girls 😁.

IWishICouldDance · 30/10/2022 08:24

I get so confused by these terms, can't we just use woman when we are on about a woman, cis is not a thing you just mean a woman. Then you could say a man (who dresses as a woman) or a woman (who dresses as a man) I never know if a trans man means they are a man or a woman (sex wise) pretending to be a man or a woman? So was there a man in the womens toilet or was there 2 women and 1 was pretending to be a man. Its hard work for someone that doesn't understand the terms.

Smilelesstalkmore · 30/10/2022 08:30

TeaKlaxon · 30/10/2022 08:16

My priority as a feminist is protecting women’s reproductive rights from the sustained attacks they are under.

My priority as a feminist is changing an economic model that is built on low wages and attacks on a welfare state that disproportionately hurt women.

My priority as a feminist will never be shitting on trans women in league with the right and far right who want to undermine those priorities.

My priority as a feminist is protecting women’s reproductive rights from the sustained attacks they are under.

Which sustained attacks are the reproductive rights of women with a penis and testicles under? I've not heard about this, could you expand please?

Soontobe60 · 30/10/2022 08:30

Thehawki · 30/10/2022 00:30

What? It's used to describe anyone who's gender is the same as their sex. It comes from latin meaning 'on this side of' or something.

I don’t believe in gender. Woman will do just fine.

JennyNotFromTheBlock · 30/10/2022 08:35

TeaKlaxon · 30/10/2022 08:16

My priority as a feminist is protecting women’s reproductive rights from the sustained attacks they are under.

My priority as a feminist is changing an economic model that is built on low wages and attacks on a welfare state that disproportionately hurt women.

My priority as a feminist will never be shitting on trans women in league with the right and far right who want to undermine those priorities.

You are not a feminist. You are a Mens Rights Activist in league with the far right yourself, and you shitting on women's basic human rights, dignity and safety is evidence of this.

BringMeTea · 30/10/2022 08:36

Cis? What dis?🧐

PurplePixies · 30/10/2022 08:49

@MargaritaPie

Women are women and sex = female.

Transwomen are Transwomen and sex = male

No need to add CIS as it’s completely meaningless.

HTH?

AutumnsCrow · 30/10/2022 08:51

My priority as a feminist will never be shitting on trans women in league with the right and far right who want to undermine those priorities.

I'm trying to understand this one. So there are 'trans women in league with the right and the far right'? (Are they the men in black masks wearing black clothes who behave aggressively at women's gatherings, or the organisers? They do have very right wing tactics, I agree.) But you won't be shitting on them?

WrongWayApricot · 30/10/2022 08:54

'Go to your bedroom and figure out your identity, then project it onto all of us...' Not the sort of GC pro tip I'm used to tbh. It sounded a lot more like what TRAs think we say.

Brefugee · 30/10/2022 08:57

It proves what we’ve always known that it is impossible to enforce women only in womens toilets. The only thing keeping men out is them self-excluding.

I'm re-reading this thread because it raises some interesting points.
This argument stands out. It took me a while to think what it reminded me of, and i finally got it. Gun laws. Whenever there is a mass shooting, there is a lot of talk about gun laws and how they restrict people's right to bear arms (so specifically in the US but also other places). And the "thinking goes" we can't ban guns because then only bad people will have guns.

And it's the same point: only owning a gun if you want to do bad things. So people literally self-exclude from gun ownership unless they are up to no good. The sign on the toilet door is a less extreme version of it, but it is the same principle. If you exclude men from women's spaces, the only men in there can't be up to any good.

But. By saying that transwomen can look however they like - and some of them really do look like burly beardy men in a wig and lipstick, how can women ever say "are you a man, you're in the wrong toilet" if we can't challenge anyone at all ever because the rule is as soon as you declare yourself a woman (or man) you are socially transitioning and that counts. Women can, then, never ever challenge anyone. To go back to the gun analogy (which may not be all that brilliant): if guns are banned and you see someone with one - they have it illegally. And can be challenged.