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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman harassed in women's bathroom by a gender critical woman who thinks she is trans, she is upset by the experience.

624 replies

MargaritaPie · 29/10/2022 23:16

twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1586295024672808961

Woman harassed in women's bathroom by a gender critical woman who thinks she is trans, she is upset by the experience.
OP posts:
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10
AutumnsCrow · 30/10/2022 08:58

Soontobe60 · 30/10/2022 08:30

I don’t believe in gender. Woman will do just fine.

I have no gender either. It's great! I run free, free as a gender-free creature gamboling ** amidst this jungle of signifiers, laughing in the face of that which seeks to stifle me. I am a gender atheist.

** To be fair I've got a bad back so all this is mostly happening in my head, but I'm very committed.

Choconut · 30/10/2022 08:58

You lost me at cis. But of course if there weren't men using the women's toilets and encroaching on women's spaces then this wouldn't be an issue in the first place.

NovemberRain2 · 30/10/2022 08:58

Isn't the lesson here that, because men can enter women's spaces, we're allowing ambiguity to set in and actual women are being harassed.

Better to have a blanket rule that men are not allowed in women's toilets.

AutumnsCrow · 30/10/2022 09:01

It's so simple isn't it? Blanket ban, then you know who the wrong 'uns are. That's the argument that the TRAs are giving us really.

Soontobe60 · 30/10/2022 09:04

Thehawki · 30/10/2022 00:57

I have friends that descibe themselves as 'agender' and would want me to use they/them pronouns bc they dont identify with their biological sex. My experience in life is probably different to yours and I ask you to explain things slightly more kindly and not assume I understand everything that you do, or that I'm saying things maliciously.

The thing is, no one can ‘opt out of their biological sex’. Its like saying you're opting out of being a human being. Its an impossible thing.
What you can opt out of, as many GC people believe, is subscribing to behaviour, appearance, aspirations that society has ascribed to a particular sex. That is the choice. Being of a particular sex isn't a choice.

OMG12 · 30/10/2022 09:07

TeaKlaxon · 30/10/2022 08:16

My priority as a feminist is protecting women’s reproductive rights from the sustained attacks they are under.

My priority as a feminist is changing an economic model that is built on low wages and attacks on a welfare state that disproportionately hurt women.

My priority as a feminist will never be shitting on trans women in league with the right and far right who want to undermine those priorities.

In protecting womens reproductive rights, does that also include not adversely affecting statistics relevant to womens healthcare by including biological men. Taking up valuable medical opinions to check for cancer in body parts they don’t have. Women excluded from health care because they might end up with a man who feels spiritually a woman providing gynaecological services. Does it include protecting womens dignity by allowing them to be called what they are - mothers rather than birth givers (aka brood mares) like the authorities have been frightened into doing.

in protecting rights to equal pay does that include excluding all the trans women from statistics on equal pay or does it include the men who have benefited from male privilege?

what about womens equality in sport where trans people have literally muscled their way in and are putting women off taking part, or forcing women to get naked in changing rooms next to random biological men and told to keep quiet in the name of equality. What about those womens right to fairly partake in sport and have a healthy lifestyle,

what about a lesbians right to state who she is physically attracted to and wants to have sex with without being called a bigot and feeling pressured to have sex with people she doesn’t want to because of the witch hunt

womens right to say they feel threatened and scared in expressing how they feel? Think this one through

Does none of this bother you too? Or are you one a feminist in areas men permit you to have an opinion?

Skelligsfeathers · 30/10/2022 09:19

Ohnohedident · 30/10/2022 08:12

Its in the face, nothing to do with build or clothing.

I saw a young bloke, nice looking chap, in 'womans'' clothes on the bus, full make up and long hair. (I suspect from his manor he though he 'passed' (he looked lovely btw))
Mens faces and womans faces, even though it must be only millimeters difference in the jaw, forehead, the set of the eyes, but its immediately obvious.

I wonder if, due to evolution and women being at such an elevated threat from men, that men can't tell so easily.
But actually that does not hold water as men are also at a hugely elevated threat from other men compared to women.
I think everyone can tell.

This is definitely why women can tell. We are evolutionarily programmed to be able to tell who is male in order to stay safe.

I went to a restaurant last week, needed the loo...there were two doors, one for men and one for women which then opened into a communal space for both with 4 cubicles . Two were marked men and 2 marked women. It was the most excruciatingly embarrassing experience.

Men were walking expecting a men's loo, already opening zips , seeing women standing there and cringing so hard. Women were really embarrassed to be standing queueing with the men. A few of us talked and the general view was " this is awful isn't it?"

There was absolutely no privacy of any kind , for sanitary purposes,there was no safety- nowhere to escape for a dodgy bloke.
And it was equally horrible for the men.

chilling19 · 30/10/2022 09:20

'Or are you one a feminist in areas men permit you to have an opinion?'

Nice.

Skelligsfeathers · 30/10/2022 09:21

from a dodgy bloke

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/10/2022 09:24

Yeah it's a particularly nasty line that gets trotted out with tedious regularity. You're gonna be raped anyway, so why bother to even attempt safeguarding.

I honestly don't know why people bother to even say it, it's so bloody stupid. Except, I think, some people like saying it.

Definitely.

TheClogLady · 30/10/2022 09:33

Thehawki · 30/10/2022 00:30

What? It's used to describe anyone who's gender is the same as their sex. It comes from latin meaning 'on this side of' or something.

If men (ALL males, including transitioned males) had stayed out of our spaces we’d never have ended up in a situation where this could happen.

what a clusterfuck.

Hopefully the new PM will make the legal clarifications that make this awful, sad situation (2 scared women, one accusing the other due to that fear) impossible in future.

TheClogLady · 30/10/2022 09:34

TheClogLady · 30/10/2022 09:33

If men (ALL males, including transitioned males) had stayed out of our spaces we’d never have ended up in a situation where this could happen.

what a clusterfuck.

Hopefully the new PM will make the legal clarifications that make this awful, sad situation (2 scared women, one accusing the other due to that fear) impossible in future.

Bum. I forgot to point out that ‘cis’ is against the rules in this section!

WickedStepmomNOT · 30/10/2022 09:44

It's a bit like the (questionable) stories about female athletes having to have 'genital checks' to check who is male and who is female - lots of TRAs up in arms about how terrible that is, but rather conveniently missing the glaringly obvious point that if males stayed the fuck away from women's sports there would be no need to be checking anyone for anything.

It's true, not questionable, that female Olympic athletes used to be checked to ensure they were actually femaile, Princess Anne was famously given an exemption when she competed in the Olympics.

Things have changed now and the physical inspection is usually not conducted, rather DNA and / or chromosome type testing is done, unless of course your Caster Semenya, in which case you are thoroughly humiliated and then banned just because you have a natural advantage. Clue is in the natural - she did nothing to enhance or change what she was born with.

I find all these modern gender issues very confusing. In my book, you are male or female, and if you are not ok with that, then once you take proper steps to change ie lose the male or female genitalia, then I am happy to call you by your preferred pronoun and have you use those corresponding toilets and changing rooms. Until then, how am I supposed to know if you think you are / wish to be a woman if you have a full beard and a penis? Just self-identifying without taking any further steps is a mockery of the system.

JennyNotFromTheBlock · 30/10/2022 09:52

WickedStepmomNOT · 30/10/2022 09:44

It's a bit like the (questionable) stories about female athletes having to have 'genital checks' to check who is male and who is female - lots of TRAs up in arms about how terrible that is, but rather conveniently missing the glaringly obvious point that if males stayed the fuck away from women's sports there would be no need to be checking anyone for anything.

It's true, not questionable, that female Olympic athletes used to be checked to ensure they were actually femaile, Princess Anne was famously given an exemption when she competed in the Olympics.

Things have changed now and the physical inspection is usually not conducted, rather DNA and / or chromosome type testing is done, unless of course your Caster Semenya, in which case you are thoroughly humiliated and then banned just because you have a natural advantage. Clue is in the natural - she did nothing to enhance or change what she was born with.

I find all these modern gender issues very confusing. In my book, you are male or female, and if you are not ok with that, then once you take proper steps to change ie lose the male or female genitalia, then I am happy to call you by your preferred pronoun and have you use those corresponding toilets and changing rooms. Until then, how am I supposed to know if you think you are / wish to be a woman if you have a full beard and a penis? Just self-identifying without taking any further steps is a mockery of the system.

@WickedStepmomNOT I think you are misinformed with Caster. They are biologically male with XY chromosomes. XY, is male. They were however, assigned as a woman and identify as woman, but their testes that make the male XY chromosome also made the testosterone. They are biologically male and anatomically male and never should have competed with women when they are not an actual biological woman. There is nothing 'natural' about her testes that make testosterone giving her an advantage over actual women.

ZombieMumEB · 30/10/2022 09:52

NovemberRain2 · 30/10/2022 08:58

Isn't the lesson here that, because men can enter women's spaces, we're allowing ambiguity to set in and actual women are being harassed.

Better to have a blanket rule that men are not allowed in women's toilets.

100% nailed it.

The person who took this video is obviously female - they look and sound female.

Unfortunately TRA's have brainwashed the younger generations that short hair = man.

We've all grown up with women who have short hair - think Winona Ryder, Jada Pinkett Smith, Natalie Portman, Keira Knightley. It's mind boggling that today, they would be thought as men purely because they have had short hair.

TRA reinforce the regressive sexist harmful stereotypes that many of us women have fought hard to destroy.

Another reason why this video is bogus - the woman said they were a "child" (Jay just turned 24) - are children even allowed on the gambling floor of a casino in Vegas? (those under 21 years of age are not allowed in the gaming areas?)
Surely this woman would have focused on that as well?

Butitsnotfunnyisititsserious · 30/10/2022 09:53

TeaKlaxon · 30/10/2022 07:47

I am shocked* that so called feminists when presented with evidence of a woman being harassed decide to:

(a) quibble about terminology; or

(b) claim she’s making it up.

There are LOTS of examples of women who are not transgender being harassed by transphobes in bathrooms.

And let’s remember that one of the high priestesses of transphobia, ‘Posie Parker’ has said that people should enter womens bathrooms to challenge trans people WITH GUNS. How might that have worked out in this case?

*JK I’m not shocked at all. Because transphobes here and elsewhere are actually about as far from feminism as it’s possible to get.

You aren't a feminist, you are a MRA. Trans women are men. It's actually that simple.
And transphobes 🥱 that insult means nothing, I'll happily be called transphobic if it means standing up for womens rights.

Iguanainanigloo · 30/10/2022 09:55

So is this actually a man or a woman? i.e do they have a penis or not? A picture of a cock or a fanny on toilet doors might help with the confusion of which space people need to enter. They could even have a seperate toilet with a "?" On, for those who want to mix things up a little, and not mind who they share their private spaces with.

VinoDino · 30/10/2022 10:00

Iguanainanigloo · 30/10/2022 09:55

So is this actually a man or a woman? i.e do they have a penis or not? A picture of a cock or a fanny on toilet doors might help with the confusion of which space people need to enter. They could even have a seperate toilet with a "?" On, for those who want to mix things up a little, and not mind who they share their private spaces with.

I'm definitely all for this.

Thehawki · 30/10/2022 10:00

Datun · 30/10/2022 01:34

@Thehawki The reason cis is offensive to many women, particularly feminists is because of the nature of the term gender.

The word gender has taken on a new meaning because of extreme transactivism. It's meant to mean an internal essence that tells you whether or not you are a man or a woman, completely separate to biology. This doesn't really hold up, because being a man or a woman is a description of biology.

Before transactivismism, gender, as a sociological term, meant masculine or feminine. A set of stereotypes based on societal ideas of what constituted masculinity or femininity. In fact, even trans organisations called it the same thing. Until extreme transactivism tried to pretend that men who wanted to be women were actually women.

And the issue is, of course, that society will determine masculinity and femininity through a sexist lens.

So femininity will be things like fragrant, nurturing, weak, compliant, sweet, ditsy, a follower.

And masculinity will be things like dominant, strong, leadership, logical, rational.

In terms of feminism, gender has been used to strip women of any power. Women were considered to be too ie responsible to vote, to empty headed to educate to degree level, too unreliable to have their own bank account or get a mortgage without a man's co-signature.

And in fact, until 1992, rape within marriage was completely legal, because society deemed that women's legal duty was to provide men with sex. That was their gendered role.

gender, for women, meant they were irresponsible, unreliable, empty headed, and must be available for sex.

The saying goes that women are oppressed due to their biology, and gender is the means by which it's done.

So you can see why many women, particularly feminists, do not find it acceptable to be called cis. Because the last bloody thing they do is identify with the gender that society wants to impose on them. The whole point of feminism is to break out of gender roles, not concrete them in.

Hence 'gender critical'.

Thank you for your detailed reply! I actually had never heard this line of thinking and appreciate others who have also educated me. I also appreciate that everyone didn’t pile on angrily and the majority of posters were mostly just frustrated with me for genuinely not understanding 😅

WickedStepmomNOT · 30/10/2022 10:07

JennyNotFromTheBlock · 30/10/2022 09:52

@WickedStepmomNOT I think you are misinformed with Caster. They are biologically male with XY chromosomes. XY, is male. They were however, assigned as a woman and identify as woman, but their testes that make the male XY chromosome also made the testosterone. They are biologically male and anatomically male and never should have competed with women when they are not an actual biological woman. There is nothing 'natural' about her testes that make testosterone giving her an advantage over actual women.

No, Caster Semenya is intersex, a rare but natural condition: a person born with “a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn't seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male.”

At birth she was assessed and assigned female and that is how she was raised.

Hoppinggreen · 30/10/2022 10:09

Asdavaluesausage · 29/10/2022 23:28

Soon as I saw thecthrwad title I guessed who’d posted it 😂😂 hi @MargaritaPie
so what exactly is a cis woman when it’s at home?

well at least they are consistent

JennyNotFromTheBlock · 30/10/2022 10:10

WickedStepmomNOT · 30/10/2022 10:07

No, Caster Semenya is intersex, a rare but natural condition: a person born with “a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn't seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male.”

At birth she was assessed and assigned female and that is how she was raised.

Yes, they are intersex, but even intersex people are either male or female by DNA. Caster has XY DNA. They were born male, even though they have intersex organs. Caster has testes and XY DNA and Chromosomes = biological male.

CrossStichQueen · 30/10/2022 10:11

WickedStepmomNOT

As far as I am aware CS was born with 5α-Reductase 2 deficiency which ONLY AFFECTS GENETIC MALES.
So Jenny was correct when they stated CS is a genetic male.

JennyNotFromTheBlock · 30/10/2022 10:11

WickedStepmomNOT · 30/10/2022 10:07

No, Caster Semenya is intersex, a rare but natural condition: a person born with “a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn't seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male.”

At birth she was assessed and assigned female and that is how she was raised.

And yes, she was wrongly assigned female at birth and raised female. But XY Chromosomes mean MALE. It's the chromosomes, the DNA, that determine sex. Caster was wrongly assigned and this has now been confirmed.

Hoppinggreen · 30/10/2022 10:16

So in summary
A woman who possibly has MH issues shouted at another woman in the women’s toilets and therefore we should allow men into the women’s toilets
I’m a bit confused