SNP MSPs will be whipped to vote in favour of gender recognition reforms

[Criticycle]

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-msps-will-be-whipped-to-vote-in-favour-of-gender-recognition-reforms-3894529

Nicola Sturgeon is now going to force members to vote in favour of gender recognition reform.

I feel like she does not understand that this is such a wedge issue that this might cripple the SNP for decades to come.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

"How does this work for the bearded blokes who say they are women but still dress like men? "

You're one of those, loves a cliched gender role of what a real

Woman looks like and a real woman looks like.
I thought this was a feminist board.

Off you pop

I think it's really sad you actually believe there are no safe spaces for women. And if you believe it then you have no will either to create or protect them.

Fact is that women's toilets, prisons, women's only swimming and hobbies groups all exist to protect women and make them safe. Your outlook is dangerous imo.

Woops meant to tag @beachcitygirl

Explain please. Would be nice to know your objections clearly instead of insults

So maybe instead of trying to have women hide in wee pretendy safe spaces we should be changing redundant & horrific hegemonic attitudes of how the sexes should be & live & behave & stop policing womanhood.

I agree that men and women shouldn't have to live and behave differently from each other. But the GRA requires there to be a difference in how men and women live so that people can 'live in their acquired gender'. So it is the GRA which is reinforcing stereotypes. Most of us would like to see an end to those.

How would a man fulfil the GRA requirement to 'live as a woman' or a woman 'live as a man'? Can you give some examples?

This may be news to you, but women don't have penises.

Nonsense again. Have you been asleep? Or are you going to act like the Equalities Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee responsible for examining this Bill in the Scottish Parliament who say that no witness provided examples of harm, but refused to hear witnesses who wanted to do just that.

That, by the way, is the only tactic available to proponents of self-id. Refuse to listen to those who can provide evidence, refuse to engage with the evidence of harms caused by self-id and abuses provided in a large number of the 11,000 written submissions and additional correspondence from opponents of the Bill, refuse to believe the experts who could advise them on predatory behaviour and safeguarding.

PS. Let's not start the nonsense of counting provinces and countries to inflate the uptake of self-declaration of sex in law.

There are 206 states in the world, of which 17 have enshrined this in law.

I'm struggling to follow your argument, however, I will pick out these bits.

Biological sex is just that. The differences in treatment of men & women is based on hateful ignorant attitudes towards sex, creating expectations of behaviour.

Why on earth would any feminist want to bang on about keeping this going ? Why wouldn't you want there to be an end to the differences between?

Feminists do not 'bang on' about keeping sex based stereotypes (I think that is what you are referring to) going. Feminists recognise that, as it stands, there are still big differences between the sexes when it comes to violence and discrimination, with males being by far the biggest perpetrators.

Do you believe that if tomorrow there was a declaration that there are literally no differences between men and women, we are all just 'people', suddenly the violence from one class of human against another would just cease?

Are you one of these people who 'doesn't see colour' aka refuses to acknowledge that someone's race has an effect on how they are treated?

When males stop raping, assaulting and murdering females on a horrific scale, maybe then we can discuss 'an end to the differences between'. Until then, women need to do what they need to protect themselves and thrive.

Oh and please do enlighten me where these "safe spaces" are, as far as im aware predators (usually cis men) have managed to breech all of them) as far as I'm aware there are no safe spaces for women.

So there is just no point in trying to create any safe spaces for women, just make everything mixed sex because ladies, ur gonna get raped anyway. Great, cheers for that insight.

So maybe instead of trying to have women hide in wee pretendy safe spaces we should be changing redundant & horrific hegemonic attitudes of how the sexes should be & live & behave & stop policing womanhood.

Take it up with the men, however they identify, who can't stop being violent towards both women and other males who don't conform to their idea of what a man is.

And your argument boils down to 'you are going to get raped anyway'. I think that is a terrible argument against the preservation of single-sex spaces.

To me, one woman getting assaulted by a biological male in a space that is supposed to be single-sex to protect women, like prisons and bathrooms, is too much. It shouldn't happen at all. That is where I draw the line. However, we are at the stage that it has happened several times now. I find this unacceptable. Especially as a lot of the time it looks as if the choice is between protecting women's safety and dignity, or protecting the feelings of biological males. I have one view of which is more important, while some people have another. I am comfortable with my choice.

You cannot fight sexism and women's oppression without clearly defining the group you are fighting for. I view women's oppression through the lens of sex, not gender. I do not think women are oppressed because we identify as people who should be oppressed, we are oppressed because of how they are born and who we grow up to be. This is across the world in the form of sex-selective abortions, sex trafficking, and sexual assault. You cannot fight these injustices without acknowledging the cultural role of the sexed body and the historical oppression of females. Other aspects of the cultural roles that fall under the banner of gender are important to many, and I acknowledge that, but I do not believe that women are oppressed because of our feelings about being women. It is because we are women.

This is important to me and many others as I define my feminism as advocating for the betterment of women as a sex-based class. It is not our feelings that are oppressed, it is us. That is why sex-based rights have been the primary focus in the history of feminist theory.

Sex-based spaces include changing rooms, domestic violence shelters, ethnic minority women's community centres, and prisons. The traditional legal protections of these spaces are under threat. This is why predators like Karen White, a biological male, can claim a women's identity and then go and rape several women in a woman's prison. I find that unacceptable. The line for me is drawn far before the assault in the protection of these areas as single-sex. That is why these protections have traditionally existed and been hard fought for.

Also, you can't say that you want to change attitudes towards the sexes then spout misogynistic language about 'getting my knickers in a twist'. That's not exactly doing your part to reduce sexism is it? Sounds like you are trying to police womanhood yourself by deciding what views are acceptable and how we should talk about them. And frankly, you can get to fuck with that.

@SecretTransTwitterEngineer
The problem for GCs is that once GRA reform is passed in scotland and, like the other 78 countries / states / provinces that have self-ID,

Please link to an official list of the 78 places. Im intrigued.

That's what struck me most about the speeches. The SNP MSPs arguing in favour had tears in their eyes (quite literally) at the emotion of it all. Many grand words & adjectives expended.

Not a word about the blunt, boring bits, such as the ones that Pam Gosal raised about the issues with religious women self excluding. Or the interaction/tensions with the EA. Or the technical issues noted by MSP Baillie. Or cross border issues. Or - well, anything, other than a lot of emotive hot air.

It'll be good to see the transcripts.

😂😂😂😂

The only people who love cliched gender roles are people who need them to prop up their 'identity'.

Women are female humans. There is no 'gatekeeping womanhood'. Men don't have a womanhood because they aren't women.
No man can ever be any type of women, regardless of appearance or feelings.

You think pretending sex doesn't matter or shouldn't be a way to segregate society in certain circumstances benefits women?

No, the penis people will still harm and oppress the vagina people, we just won't be allowed to name the problem.
We all still know exactly which sex has all the power and entitlement.

No one that puts male fantasy above female reality is a feminist.

This doesn't make any sense. How can something which allows you to change your legal SEX not have any bearing whatsoever on single SEX spaces? The word is right there!

What the fuck does 'single sex spaces' mean if anyone can change their legal sex with no gatekeeping?

All this 'chill out ladies, why are you getting so hysterical? This reform which allows you to legally change you sex, totally isn't going to affect any laws which are based on sex, what a silly scaremongering thought'.

This is just batshittery.

Seven SNP MSPs defied the whip to vote against the bill, including one minister and two SNP MSPs abstained.

That is a list of truly brave people, and I thank them for their integrity and courage.

Yes, it was just self congratulatory 'look how progressive and compassionate we are' meaningless bollocks from them, complete with rainbow lanyards, just in case anyone was in any doubt.

There were a few (the Labour MSP and the man in the light blue tie?) who seemed to be aware of how the technicalities of the EA etc are going to have to become relevant going forward, which was slightly heartening. I really hope that this all gets really hashed out.

Wasn't undermining the family unit a key part of other regimes in the past? Possibly an aim of the USSR.

Biological sex is just that. The differences in treatment of men & women is based on hateful ignorant attitudes towards sex, creating expectations of behaviour

So we get rid of the sexist gender roles and expectations. No issues with men being free to wear dresses and make up, they already can. It just doesn't alter their sex. Men should be welcoming to all gender non conforming males in their spaces.

Yep. I'm holding onto a sliver of hope that Labour might save the SNP from making an utter travesty of legislation.

There were noises from more than one Labour MSP that they intended to vote 'yes' at Stage 1, and then introduce further measures in Stage 2 & 3 that might ameliorate things.

There is even a chance this could really answer women's prayers and do what was hinted at by genuinely giving 'primacy' to the EA single sex exemptions. If they did that, and enforced them, and women were 100% sure to retain single sex exemptions as detailed, and all protections in law, then nobody would give two hoots about GRCs and they can hand them out like sweeties, change them every two weeks and have several.

I think that would require some bloody robust lawmakign though, and I'm not sure anyone involved has the courage to do it. Given that there is a male without a GRC currently running a Rape Crisis centre in a job that was reserved for a woman.

How the hell can they justify spending so much time and effort in this? Is there really nothing else more important than this that they could be attending to? Or is this the mother of all dead cats?

I think Nicola Sturgeon has been clear that in her response to Ash Regan that not voting with the whip will lead to dismissal for ministers. Wil be interesting to see if she carries through on that

Distracts from the ferries.

And it's strange now that people for the moment seem absolutely fine with the fact that there are single sex exemptions in the EA, because it means they can shut women up about self id - 'relax, the single sex exemptions mean that even with a GRC, you can't access women's spaces in certain situations, so stop complaining about GRA reform.'

Except that Stonewall have been campaigning to get those exemptions removed from the Equality Act. And many TRAs and 'trans allies' have been on board with that, and questioning what a 'legitimate aim' for a single sex space would be. Its stealth erosion of women's rights, bit by bit.

The reality in all of this is that if transwomen felt safe in male toilets and other spaces, they'd just use those.

But instead of forcing men to be more accepting, for them to be able to pee wearing a dress and heels and no one bat an eyelid, or be safe in a male prison we push the issue onto women.

Who aren't really bothered about the confused wee teenager or the middle aged transwoman who has got on with life quietly for the last 20 years.

What we are shouting loudly from the rooftops is that this is a massive issue for the predatory males who can now easily exploit this loophole and access vulnerable women with no one able to challenge it, and very little requirement on their part.

Similarly prostate cancer doesn't care what you identify as and pretending that you really can change sex is putting those who are trans in danger.
I'd like to think that if I wanted to become a lion someone would point out the obvious perils of me getting in the den at Edinburgh zoo

Miles Briggs was one of two Tory abstentions. Absolutely disgusted by this. He’s one of my MSPs and has steadfastly ignored all my emails to him over the past 18 months, even when I’ve asked him for specific help (and he had my full Mermaids dossier back at the end of May from me and even ignored that). He’s got no interest in listening to concerns and so has decided to effectively just stick his fingers in his ears and pretend nothing is happening.

‘The reality in all of this is that if transwomen felt safe in male toilets and other spaces, they'd just use those.’ I don’t think that’s the case. There is a definite ‘type’ of person who uses the facilities to get a reaction, interact, and take photos, and other things.