SNP MSPs will be whipped to vote in favour of gender recognition reforms

[Criticycle]

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-msps-will-be-whipped-to-vote-in-favour-of-gender-recognition-reforms-3894529

Nicola Sturgeon is now going to force members to vote in favour of gender recognition reform.

I feel like she does not understand that this is such a wedge issue that this might cripple the SNP for decades to come.

Nailed it. I was fully supportive of us going first with gay marriage, the smoking ban and plastic bag tax.

But this is rainbow washing crap and she knows it. If she truly believed in it she'd let sunlight and democracy in.

“I live in Scotland the general recognition reform has made me terrified to live here”

Genuine question, honestly I’m just curious as to why this makes you terrified to live in Scotland?

Well it was the top item on the BBC scotland news this morning - a fairly balanced report (by the BBC standards anyway!)

I don't know if Pam Ghosal's comment in the Times ahs been shared yet:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5112cda0-553f-11ed-b965-3a5f647316f8?shareToken=dca3d51d0ff22eca1290c036049b4433

Sorry, misspelled her name, Pam Gosal.

ITS A GREAT DAY FOR MANKIND

I don't see how this won't turn into a major clash under UK law with the Equality Act, because this will be flat out, determined prejudice against women, particularly women protected under the existing coverage of faith and disability. This stupid woman is risking shoving this until she has made a mess she may not be able to fix in terms of the UK government having to step in and order what the Scots govt can do. And at that point, a lot of her country will see the UK government as the cavalry saving them, not as invaders and the enemy.

She's going to undo Scots independence, not achieve it. A child could foresee where this risks going.

WRONGTHINKERS WITH CERVICXES SHOULD BE RIGHTLY AFEART

WE ARE READYING LOCH GULAG

Genuine question, honestly I’m just curious as to why this makes you terrified to live in Scotland?

If you scroll back through this group you will find plenty of disturbing reasons. There's a recent thread about the Sandyford clinic, and further back there's what's being recommended as best practice in Scottish schools some of which goes against safeguarding. RUK is rowing back on this but Scotland is forging ahead and that should be terrifying for parents.

For women there's disrespect for the Equalities Act and attempts to redefine "gender reassignment" to mean "gender identity" and to replace rights based on sex with rights based on gender identity,. These have dangerous and nasty implications for women which have been widely discussed here. Again these changes are being more effectively resisted in England.

And now the government has passed GRA reforms which stir self-id into the pot and lower the age at which permanent decisions can be made. That's not helping.

The government have done a whip although they know it's unpopular. and they're going ahead anyway. Which is also scary in its own way because it means there is no room for dissent. And this version of GRA reform is the hill they're prepared to die on so there's no more room for rational debate. It's damaging but once it's done we can't go back on it without doing even more damage. Which really is terrifying.

Sorry - shouldn't say they "have passed" these reforms as the vote hasn't happened yet but with that much whipping I can't imagine that they wont.

Is the vote for this today?

First stage vote is today. There will be further stages, possibly with amendments raised, but it will pass both today and at the final stage.

Literally.

Is there any sliver of hope here, for a gender critical union supporter?

they force this through, it goes tits up, UK government has to play the enforcer to prevent a legislative dogs dinner, and it screws the SNP so badly they lose any momentum they had on their ridiculous let’s-go-again-until-the-plebs-get-it-right pretendy referendum?

I hate the concept of playing with womens rights like this. I just can’t see how it won’t go through, so I have to hope it goes wrong.

I’m a Scot who is just about to move back and it terrifies me what I’m stepping back into. I’ve never lived under an SNP government, and I really don’t recognise my home country as the amiably tolerant place is used to be…

Moved from south east England to Scotland back in the 80s. Went from a school where girls and boys were carefully treated equally to a school where girls still did cooking and sewing while boys did woodwork, metalwork and technical drawing. It did change when I was there, but they were still way behind.

It may have changed somewhat, but out in the provinces, there’s still sometimes unconsidered sexism. Was slightly shocked a year or so back to see a program about Common Riding (think it was Hawick). Most of the event was still male only, with women only tolerated in a couple of events, and only secondarily involved in the annual celebration posts. A man opined on TV that “If it’s not broken, don’t fix it” seemingly oblivious to the fact that it was broken for women.

I did say traditionally. There’s been a lot of apparent progress since I moved there and lived there (up till 12 years ago) but I’m not sure how deep the change actually goes beyond the central belt.

It's trans activist bingo, isn't it? "Most discriminated against", "high rates of suicide" etc. These people don't think at all.

That response from Leonard is utter witless bumwash. For fucks sake.

Remember also the the snp do not have a majority and are relying on their mates in the greens to vote things through. And we all know what the greens are like.

This must put Joanna Cherry in a tricky position.

Joanna is an MP not an MSP. She does not have a vote on this

No. As a strategy it's beyond unhelpful.

There is only so long you can pull the hyperbole and drama and repetitive emotive heart string tugging before people burn out, hit compassion fatigue and learn to be less easily manipulated.

And once you've broken their natural compassion and empathy, it won't be back.

I've found though that it's less misogynistic in the main. Maybe it's just the people I know!

I’d actually agree. The sexism I experienced tended towards conservatism (small c) and was largely paternalistic and relatively benign. I actually preferred it to the more hidden rage at women that some men seem to experience when sexism is pushed underground.

I chose to live in Scotland until I moved overseas, following my exes job and if I moved back to the UK, Scotland would be my most likely choice, though the current politics do worry me. Believe it or not, my original comment was more benign personal observation than intended criticism.

I suspect pushing sexism underground sometimes actually creates more anger and misogyny and I don’t have an answer to that.

I suspect pushing sexism underground sometimes actually creates more anger and misogyny and I don’t have an answer to that.

Yes, I think this is true and it can be quite complex. A lot of lefty men think they are not sexist at all, or that sexism is over and women have equal rights now, and cannot see or understand their own misogyny - being left-wing and therefore right on and morally superior means they can't be sexist. But often they're just suppressing it and it comes out in anger and resentment towards women, who, at some deep level, they still actually do think should be serving them, doing the childcare and housework and enabling the man's career, and providing regular sex, and not getting above her station by earning more or having career status.

I'm not saying all left-wing men are like this but I've known so many who are. Often you sense a coiled spring of anger under a veneer of Mr Lefty Nice Guy. Often Mr Lefty Nice Guy's family set-up is oddly traditional with the woman doing all the gruntwork and taking a back seat in decisions and her career getting sidelined. That happened to me in my relationship and I thought I was a lifelong radical feminist - it took me so long to see that I wasn't going to get through to him, he wasn't just scatty - he was deliberately, if not necessarily consciously, keeping me down and using my labour to benefit himself.

So it doesn't surprise me that men like this, including my ex, love gender ideology - a worldview that lets you look virtuous and inclusive while simultaneously finally getting to tell women to shut up with impunity.

I was going to say similar. Why is she trying to run Scotland with such a rod of iron? I don’t understand.

Why is she trying to run Scotland with such a rod of iron? I don’t understand.

I think it's an addiction to being right-on and more socially liberal than fusty old England/London. Once you fall into the gender ideology trap, you're not allowed out and any thought of asking questions, or perhaps even checking for evidence for these ideas before promoting them, makes you a terf and a bigot. Sturgeon won't go there because that would mean being like a Tory in her eyes. She probably started out like many people, believing the hype that trans rights are just like gay rights and it's just about #bekind, so leapt on the bandwagon. Now the only way to avoid facing up to the reality of the harms GI can lead to - which are becoming more visible everywhere - is to block out any opposition and let the bigotry accusations be used to silence them.