SNP MSPs will be whipped to vote in favour of gender recognition reforms

[Criticycle]

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-msps-will-be-whipped-to-vote-in-favour-of-gender-recognition-reforms-3894529

Nicola Sturgeon is now going to force members to vote in favour of gender recognition reform.

I feel like she does not understand that this is such a wedge issue that this might cripple the SNP for decades to come.

twitter.com/BTPBerks/status/1585579312081666052

Do you think they'll make having a GRC compulsory? Like an 'Identity' card. Or will it be like you don't actually have to have gender dysphoria or possess a GRC to self-ID as trans? I wonder when the first prosecution will take place of someone obtaining a GRC who didn't actually live 'properly' enough in their acquired gender or didn't continue to live 'properly' enough in their acquired gender after obtaining a GRC? Just how is this going to operate in the real world?

like every other SNP policy - none of the actual practicalities of how something would work in real life has been given any consideration whatsoever!

I also wonder about the requirement to live in the acquired gender and how that would work in practice. I also wonder how many people will swap genders more than once during their lifetime. Would this cause further problems? I can see a lot of young people wanting to change gender at 16 and then change back again in their twenties.

@AlecTrevelyan006 and? Not quite sure I of the point you're trying to make.

A person is guilty of unlawful and vile behaviour and you want to blame everyone who is of the same characteristics for that behaviour.

Would you say the same if a Jewish person committed a crime? Ie blame all Jews ? Deny them their rights/identity/race/religion.

Personally very interested in this one. (Hint that's called anti-sensitism)

Would you say the same if a woman committed a vile crime ? Ie blame all women ? (Myra hindley) and deny women their identity/rights

Would you say the same if a person of colour committed a crime (ie blame all people of colour and deny them their identity/race/rights )

If not then your a very sad very confused individual.

The problem for GCs is that once GRA reform is passed in scotland and, like the other 78 countries / states / provinces that have self-ID, nothing happens apart from some trans people getting some dignity, it will leave GCs needing to answer some pertinent questions as to why they have been pushing nonsense about this reform for years.

And when did I say that trans people should not have a peaceful existence? This is the problem with you lot, you come here pretending you want a debate but you just spout the same bullshit rhetoric.

Disagreeing with someone does not mean they cease to exist. Disagreeing with someone does not mean they deserve ill will. It's either willfully misrepresenting the argument or just plain childish.

I do not believe trans women are women because I view them as gender non-conforming biological males. I do not believe they have anything in common with women. The basis of women's oppression globally is because we are born with female bodies. Trans women do not have that experience. You cannot change sex. You can change some secondary characteristics and 'perform' a gender but I find a lot of that to be regressive sexist stereotypes. I do not think that clothing and behaviour make someone a man or a woman, and to believe so implies that women globally are asking for our oppression or even identifying into it. That is offensive.

All of that means that there are certain areas and services for which I define women as adult biological females and so I would want single-sex services. This is in line with my personal beliefs, my cultural background, and my experiences as a sexual assault survivor. We are all the sum of our experiences. I respect the lived experiences of transwomen but they must also respect the lived experience of women who say that our experiences are important.

Simple. Mind is part of the body. That's why mindfulness and exercise benefit mental health. It's all connected. Mind is the pilot of your meat suit.

See that person or should I say 'human' who they're looking for in Berkshire for wanking in a bus shelter and exposing themselves to two teenage girls - would they have passed the test for 'living in their acquired gender' by going around in public wearing that wig and skirt for 3 months and asking to be called Rita? Is that human, trans - who no woman on this earth should be afraid of - or are they one of those 'predatory men'. I see them as nothing other than a predatory man but am I allowed to actually say that? Does that make me hateful and transphobic or does it just make me a f##king very angry, fed-up woman? Genuine question.

Yes, it's a shame, the absolute complete lack of statistically significant evidence of detriment to women resulting from self-id in all those countries implementing it for years now, isn't it?

will ask this? Are you arguing that trans people shouldn't be allowed to exist at all?

Typically TRA emotive shite.

No one is arguing that 'trans people exist'
We are arguing that males should not have access to any and all female only spaces, sports and services, just because they claim to have this thing called a gender identity, which they expect the rest of us to pretend these special feelings of theirs should be prioritised and pandered to above all else.

Transwomen are a subset of men, not women.

it should be pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain - the overwhelming vast majority of sex-related crimes are carried out by males and there is no evidence to suggest that the offending patterns and rates of trans women are any different to those of any other males.

Your lack of understanding of what the GRA is and what a GRC does as well as what enshrining the self-declaration of sex in law means,@beachcitygirl, is quite astonishing given the way you condemn women opposing it.

Can you imagine just for a moment that we might just have a different understanding from you because we have carefully looked at the issue for years and engaged with it on a level that goes way beyond Twitter soundbites?

Sorry, it was a train station shelter not a bus shelter. I apologise for mis-identifying the culprit as a bus wanker...

Has anyone actually collected this evidence though? And also, if transwomen are counted as women in the statistics, how will we know anyway?

What do you mean by 'statistically significant' anyway? How many harmed women are OK to be collateral for males to do what they want and go where they want?

Interesting shift in your argument there. You used to claim it never happens.

Now it’s "statistically significant" detriment. You do know that that is complete nonsense what you're saying here, because on the whole the detriments we are discussing are not measurables. (There is statistically significant data that mixed-sex spaces pose a higher risk for women however).

And that for the most part no one is collecting the data where the issue is measurable.

@WanOvaryKenobi

Since when did men need to change clothes to attack women. Some do. Predators going predator.
As evidenced by the predator previously mentioned and attacks on women.
Also it seems you just don't understand the issue. It is complicated.

Biological sex is just that. The differences in treatment of men & women is based on hateful ignorant attitudes towards sex, creating expectations of behaviour.

Why on earth would any feminist want to bang on about keeping this going ? Why wouldn't you want there to be an end to the differences between?

Oh and please do enlighten me where these "safe spaces" are, as far as im aware predators (usually cis men) have managed to breech all of them) as far as I'm aware there are no safe spaces for women.

So maybe instead of trying to have women hide in wee pretendy safe spaces we should be changing redundant & horrific hegemonic attitudes of how the sexes should be & live & behave & stop policing womanhood.

Stop getting your knickers in a twist about a word..

We already segregate by sex in certain situations. The reason for this is that it is widely recognised that males, as a class (not as individuals) are much more dangerous than females. We already 'tar all men with the same brush' when it comes to keeping men, even the ones who aren't dangerous, out of women's spaces.

No one really had a problem with this until certain males decided that women shouldn't have the right to these segregated spaces anymore, and now suddenly it's all really unfair.

These analyses are perfectly possible using crime databases, surveys etc.

Here's is a link to one robust study in the US comparing crime rates in 2 similar locales that had differing policies on gender identity inclusive public accommodation, showing no relationship between policy and incidence of crime:

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

@WanOvaryKenobi

Of course disagreeing doesn't mean someone ceases to exist, but I wouldn't waste my time chatting with someone who willed that.

If "you lot" to coin a phrase prefer the grc then do tell what you like about that. Most enlightened society, medicine and health care and women's orgs similiarly to myself found it reductive, over medicalised and unnecessarily demeaning.

If you could not lie about what I have previously said I would be very grateful, thanks.

@Smilelesstalkmore many of us did have a problem with that. Remember Corbyn's ridiculous women only train carriages. I shouted damm loud about that.

Males commit 99% of sex related crimes irrespective of how they identify. That is more than enough reason to exclude ALL males from female single sex spaces. This is not equivalent to excluding Jewish or black people which would be bigotry. Your arguments are beyond puerile.

A person is guilty of unlawful and vile behaviour and you want to blame everyone who is of the same characteristics for that behaviour

Your examples are nonsense.

Males commit almost all sex offences and violent crimes and the majority of victims are female. So the most basic safeguarding and common sense is separate sex facilities where females are at their most vulnerable.

Unfortunately, people's brains fall out when some male people say they are women and we must instantly pretend that all the men who claim to be women are suddenly benign and harmless, despite evidence that shows their offending rates are not lower than other men.

I also wonder about the requirement to live in the acquired gender and how that would work in practice

How does this work for the bearded blokes who say they are women but still dress like men?
How do you live as 'non binary'?

So you think that prisons, refuges and hospital wards should all just be mixed sex then?

This strawman is so huge we need Edward Woodward to set fire to it.