Another friendship bites the dust

[SapphosRock]

Apparently it has come to some friends' attention that I have radical views and they want nothing more to do with me. I'm now blocked.

This the second time this has happened with people I was close to.

Trying not to mind, but I do mind. We had lots of fun things planned and I'm mourning the loss of the friendships.

What have other people done in this situation?

I'm told that the gay man who organises one of the local Prides is full-on terf if you catch him after a few drinks in the pub.

That's horrendous. Insulting to women and men with erectile dysfunction both. Can't see the point of drugs and radical surgery if I'm going to be a woman anyway given the ravages of time?

And what of women who lose their sex drive ; are they now all men ? Bonkers

There was a fascinating and thought provoking thread on AIBU recently where a close family friend of someone had just been sentenced for child sex abuse. The poster vividly described her sense of shock at having to re-evaluate every connection she'd ever had with him, and disbelief that his wife was standing by him. There was a really interesting examination of why the wife might have done so.

I had a friend who became paralysed following a motorbike smash. His biking mates responded in one of two ways; either they sold their bikes and gave up the scene altogether, or they carried on biking and cut the friend out of their lives as he provided too much of a reminder of the risk.

There are an awful lot of people who seem to be mentally unable of facing up to shocking news that causes you to reavaluate core aspects of your life. It's easier for some people to ignore it in the hope it might just quietly go away.

Friends who start off saying how absolutely they are ‘not like those people’, when they start explaining their views are ‘those people. They just never realized what the demands from the extreme activists were.

Absolutely this.
I have been on FWR for years, always tried to engage politely with people who claim to think TWAW but there are a handful of questions that they just cannot answer. Over and again, they simply refuse to answer.

Either they don't know, or they don't want to say. Hardly questions they won't have come across, either. Things like 'what is a woman' usually end up in them (if they ever answer) having to have two definitions - but one is always reliant on knowing that women are female.

I will admit there's plenty of GC tribalism too. I thought about starting a thread on 'what is your least GC belief' to try and discuss that a bit more. Mine is probably knowing that we can't always tell. One of my young female acquaintances who's transitioned you would certainly see as a lad, you wouldn't think twice about it. And only because some of the campaign points on the GC 'side' require people not to be able to tell to be an issue at all. At the very least there are a lot of mixed signal/androgynous presentations out there.

Yep... I was speaking to a relative sic months back...

Him - "TWAW, my partner has a trans woman friend and she has known she was trans forever and is lovely. Obviously TW should be allowed in women's toilets, what's the issue?"

Me - "so would you date a TW"

Him - "no"

Me - "can you see how hypocritical it is that you are sat there saying "TWAW except in my bed"?"

Him - [tumbleweed]

The subject hasn't been brought up since, but I think I'm going to bring it up again in the context of recent stories.

Great idea for a thread.

Tribalism is very human, we all tend to want to bond together with like minded people, and 'othering' those who disagree with us is a common tendency. I think there are degrees, though, and when anything tips into dehumanising rhetoric it reveals a problem.

We should all be careful not to let common or garden bonding become divisive tribalism - I just see far less of it among women/feminists; there seems to be an inherent inclination to argy-bargy ask questions and challenge each other.

Maybe being a woman/loosely a feminist is too loose a group to encourage othering or tribalism? Maybe having less in common as a group is actually a strength, because it fosters diversity and tolerance?

Yeah.

I have a friend like this. I wasn't super close to her, but it really is a matter of denial for her. She is someone who is deeply troubled about being kind and thinking the right things, and she is very black and white about what those are.

It's sad as I can see how damaging it is in her life.

I also know people - thankfully none of my friends - who simply are authoritarian in their thinking, who believe that people who think differently, or even vote differently, than they do are basically evil or possibly stupid, or maybe evil and stupid. Not that some of them are - all of them.

They believe you should cut out anyone who thinks differently, who says something that they interpret as phobic or bigoted or racist. Which includes pretty much anything that is not exactly what they think. After all, if you would have a racist friend you must be a racist apologist yourself.

I am not sad for these people and if I had a friend who felt they had to cut me out for those reasons I would be disappointed but I don't really see much space for friendship anyway.

Maybe being a woman/loosely a feminist is too loose a group to encourage othering or tribalism? Maybe having less in common as a group is actually a strength, because it fosters diversity and tolerance?

Yeah, I don't know many women who are in solidarity with all other women enough to be that tribal.

Though I think there can be some very tribal feminists, some who seem to think of themselves in tribal solidarity with all women. Though often they are harsh on women who don't feel that way about them.

I think that would be a really interesting thread

You’re not alone OP. One of my oldest, closest friends is done with me because I don’t think her 6foot tall son is a girl named Jessica.

Indeed - would be good to see how us GCers differ! (And then I can go NC with you all, you bigots....)

I also don't believe that 'you can always tell' and I don't have that much of a problem with 'inclusive' language when it's used appropriately and accurately.

I think being honest about not knowing the answer to something and admitting it's a grey area is the way forward (people who 'pass' in toilets etc - I totally agree it shouldn't be about appearance etc but we don't live in a perfect world). Anyway - that's for a different thread.

i think there would need to be a sticky about what the GC position on everything is

that might prove difficult

I have one friend who I seem to have lost by the wayside. Not a close friend, more of a friend of a friend, but someone I would see at a hobby group and occasionally get barbecue invites from.

It started at a barbecue where I brought a couple of things up... he was completely dismissive of my points and he take on trans seems to be entirely about how TW are fine at the clubs he goes too, toilets are a free for all, no issues. A few days later I emailed him and said I was blocking him on facebook - and said it was because I don't like facebook or use it much (both true as he should know from my lack of posts) and I didn't want to get drawn into politics chats on there and he was tempting me with his politics posts!

I haven't heard from him since. Not sure what to say to him when I next see him at this hobby group. What annoys and frustrates me most is that he is a Skeptic (ie should know better than buy into gender woo) with a fairly big knowledge of psychology and a particular interest in narcissism since he got out of a very bad relationship with a narcissist. If anyone should be able to see at least some of the problems it should be him.

Ultimately though I think it comes down to just living your life, being you authentic self. And if people buy into extremist views (such as the trans ideology which says that people should live their life pretending to be the one thing they categorically are not) then they can get lost.

This ideology really makes me glad I am fairly happy in my own company!

@TransRawr u ok hun?

This thread made me think of the one friend I've lost over this, OP. It was a few years ago. She was very, very invested in the whole genderqueer shebang. Transman partner, pronouns, etc.

Thinking of her prompted curiosity to how it was all going with her, so I just went and looked her up on the socials. Interestingly, no pronouns now. No rainbows. She seems to be an out and proud lesbian. She looks a lot happier; I'm really glad for her. These things come and go, so you never know what might happen in future.

Being GC has nothing to do with white supremacy. At all.

There are vocal racists who believe sex should define gender (hate to inform you of this, but there are racists of every political stamp). Being GC is, by definition, about believing that sex is not affected by gender and more than that, that gender is largely damaging to women. These are different things.

There are cultures, many of them, where young men who are gay or who may present a physical threat to the patriarchs rule are put in a cultural space that labels them as women or as non-men. This is not especially 'progressive' as feminist analysis would see it. Is this now happening more often in western cultures?

I hope no one is erasing black terves? That would be kinda racist.

Being GC has nothing to do with white supremacy. At all

is that to transrwar

Yes, responding to the deleted post. I get very tired of posts that vaguely go know about 'links to' with no specifics. Someone else must have reported it.

Ignore them. Some idiot dropping by to suggest women on this board eat kittens is not worth a moment of your time or energy.

Thanks permanant

i assumed that was the case

I'm sure you're right Arabella.

OP, yes I’ve had to ditch a few people. The two most recent had always been a bit “bandwagon-jumping”, but I’m ok with ignoring political nonsense - but a few weeks ago the conversation turned to JKR. It rapidly moved to throwing the word “nazi” into the conversation- but the final straw was when one (a childless woman) said she’d bought binders for children. I cannot and will not condone child abuse.

both of these people are childless and nearly 50 - so you’d have thought at that age they’d have some common sense behind them. We met at uni and one has a zoology degree, so you’d have thought have a basic understanding (😉) of genetics and procreation. The very thought they would run around getting binders for “confused” children behind their parent’s backs made me quite sick.

I also had a friend who turned into a Twitter attack dog - I’ve seen his posts on these boards. He’s gay and I’m pretty sure he knows what a man is and is not. I hadn’t realised how much he hated women.